mikew968

I am considering club racing with my 968. I have been doing DE's for about 2 years and have 12 track days with another 8-10 planned this year. I am upgrading suspension now and am planning a cage this summer. I have the following concerns about moving from DE to CR:
1. While I have 12 days and am progressing well I only have 12 days (soon to be 14).
2. I'm not fired-up about the increased possibility of an on-track issue which I would assume is incresed with CR.
3. Certainly is more expensive.

I'm sure others have ponders these same issues, any guidence would be great!!!

Thanks, Mike

Lemming

Mike,

I'm in the same place, 14 or so DEs last year (my first year) and wanting to race. In the end I decided to hold off for one more year. I plan on getting my car sorted out (new Leda coilovers front and back on order) and some more seat time. One thing that I'm now doing in my DEs is going offline into corners. Up until this year, I always drove the line which is fast but is not always going to be the case in a race. I have to admit, taking turns from a totally different line has been eye opening and I'm glad that some of my spins have taken place while no one is right behind me

The other issue, an unexpected house expense that hurt my driving budget

mikew968

Thanks Tim

I am thinking of running at Putnam Park where i have 8 days already and possible 2 or 4 more before the September club race at Putnam park.

Mike

APKhaos

Mike,
It would help to know where you live.

Its an interesting move. I made it at the start of last season, and had some of the same reservations you have about risk of incidents and the more general question of whether the pressure of racing would make it more [or less] fun than DE. As I often say when this comes up, DE is to racing as paintball is to armed combat.

Here's something you might want to try. Find a good race license school. NASA in the Mid Atlantic runs a great school, which comes as close as possible to putting you into a race environment, and gives you some exercises that have you passing door-to-door with other cars through corners etc. while the instructors in their own cars are dive-bombing, *******, and generally watching how you handle the pressure. A fantastic experience, adn one that will give you a good taste of what's to come.

One thing that was blindingly obvious throughout the school was that all of the skills we teach in DE need to be second nature to you. Driving the line, brake points, shift points need to be almost automatic, because the majority of your attention needs to be dedicated to judging and executing passes, managing being passed, race tactics, and more. You just don't have the luxury of driving 'the line'. In racing, the line you drive is often where there is room to put the car.

If you are confident that you are ready for this, then my advice is go do a good license school and see if the instructors agree.

Hope this helps.

RJay

I'm also, at this point on the outside looking in. I'll leave the real advice to those more experienced than I, so take what I have to say as opinion. Unless you've shot straight up into the black run group, I'd say you should do at least another year. I'd also advise that you make sure you know the rules backwards and forwards and do a serious amount of research before you start improving your car. You might find it substantially cheaper to buy a done car.

A couple of questions, I've asked myself.
1) Are my DE lap times reasonable for the class I'll be in. Its no fun being a mobile chicane and its dangerous to boot.

2) Have I really had sufficient instruction? Probably wont race until I do a school.

3) Can I afford it? Tires, fuel, travel, fees, maintainence, safety upgrades, insurance etc.

So far, I'm personally not satisfied with the answers for myself. In this my third year, I'm doing almost 30 days and 20 AXs this year with a data logger on-board to see if I can't at least answer question 1 in the affirmative. If you driving your 968 and lapping turbos in DE, maybe your ready, but there really is no rush, 18 hours of seat time over two years seems a little brief to me, but I'm no expert and only you really know for sure. Best of luck!

Larry Herman

From someone who has competed in autocrossing, then DEs and time trialing and then onto club racing from 1995 to 1999 there is nothing like wheel to wheel racing. It is 20 to 25 laps of pure adrenaline rush. I have run at the front of F stock, one of the most competitive PCA classes and have won and done well, and if it weren't for family reasons and $$$$, I would never have stopped. And I plan to get back into it in the next year or so. It is more addictive than you can imagine.

A few items to consider:

1) Do you really care about your car? If so, don't race. You run a far greater risk of breaking it or wadding it up. If you want to win, you will run it harder and take more chances than you ever though you would do. At Roebling Road, I ran down the grass at 125 mph in order to get by the leader who was trying to block me from passing. People get really stupid over a $30 trophy (myself included).

2) Can you afford it? In order to be competitive, you must have new Hoosiers every race. Otherwise you are giving away seconds per lap. You also have to have the best parts on your car, because every other front runner will.

3) Can you spend the time? One of the reasons that I got out was because I could not spend all the weekends racing or practicing. The last season I ran, when I got to the first race in May, with 5 track days under my belt, I was running against guys who already had done 20 or more track days.

4) Do you really care if you run mid-pack? If you are bent on running at the front, then re-read all of the above and believe it. If not, then get out there and just have the time of your life.

Eric in Chicago

Don’t take this the wrong way Mike, it is not directed at you, but anyone pondering the same question. I would say if you have to ask if yourself if your ready, your probably not. I had 4 years of DE and one year running in the instructor group where it was passing at will, anywhere with a point (and sometimes a inferred point) that is when I realized I could race. But, my first few sessions with the Black group had me angry, scared and quite unsure of my abilities. Why the hell is that GT car right on my bumper and taking me on the inside of a tight turn? What the hell is that guy doing passing me in the Kink (road America) I NEVER POINTED!!!! Then towards the end of the season, I was used to it and came to the conclusion if I could survive Chicago PCA black group, racing was not going to be that difficult. Having now raced for 2 full seasons, I look back on what the 1st year taught me. You never drive on line in a race unless your doing parade laps by your self and then your going to get lapped and have to deal with some pretty fast traffic that will be annoyed with you being slow on line in a passing turn. What will be even more annoying is spinning your car at turn 2 because you suddenly realize that there are 35 cars all looking for the right spot (F class where you will run is the largest run group in PCA when combined with I-E classes) I am not trying to talk you out if it, nor draw comparisons to my exp. You could have been brought up in Carts, raced motorcycles etc. Cub racing is very expensive, no matter how you cut it. To run at the front, double your expected cost, providing your a great driver. So you want to race at Putman, Grisby,Heath,Childs,Clark,Inglot own F at Putman. Can you do a 1:26 at Putman? If not you will be run over by the aforementioned that are doing sub 1.21's on a bad day. Now I am a slow learner, but after 6 years after the track bug bit me and only last year was I comfortable wheel to wheel and know that my mistakes will not take out me or someone else (I hope, knocking on wood) If you cant push your car over a cliff and walk away, racing is not for you yet. If you’re not prepared to spend double what you do now for DE, racing is not for you. If you do not have the skills needed for proper car control at 9/10th when something goes wrong, racing in not ready for you yet. Bad things happen, sometimes its mechanical, sometimes its poor judgment sometimes its just bad luck. When you strap in you have to be prepared 100% if you don’t feel your ready to make that commitment, racing is not for you. I am selfish, I would like to know that the car next to me/ behind me knows what to do when the green drops and the car gets loose in T1. I don’t want to be a victim of a rookie mistake, I have enough time worrying about my own mistakes!! This sounds harsh and is meant to be. You may be a great driver, only you know that. This epic is directed at anyone thinking the same thing you are brave enough to ask on a public forum. Club racing is great fun and the people who I have battled with for the last 10th of a second or that 5 or 6 or 10th spot at the finish have become some of my close friends. It is about respect, I don’t know you, I don’t know your skills. I will see your rookie X on your car and give you a wide berth and hope that your region has had the insight to pass you into the club race ranks. I will be happy to assist you and be a club race mentor for your rookie race. But I will be mad as hell if you screw up and mess up your car or someone else’s because you were not ready. Chances are I will be able to avoid you should something go terribly wrong, will you be able to avoid me if the same happens to me?? I would be happy to correspond with anyone that has questions about club racing. I love it and would love to see more people move into the club racing ranks, but only when they are ready.

mooty

eric is absolutely right. i have 30 track days per year for the last two years. and total of about 90 days to date. i run in the open passing/instructors group but i sure as hell not ready to race yet.

Jimbo951

Mike,

I seriously doubt you're ready to CR. I've got 55 track days, and I know I'm not ready yet.

But enough of my blabering.... I'd suggest you get some lap times and compare them against the CR record books. Compare your best time against the best time for the same track, same class of car. Amazingly, this is an incredibally consistant analysis. I drive at several tracks, and my ratio is almost always the same.

For example, the best time at VIR for an F class car is 2:17 (137 seconds). My best time is 2:25 (145 seconds). This means my lap time is 106% of the best lap time for the same type of car.

Remember, F1 sends the driver home if he can't qualify at 107% of the best time. I don't think I'd want to show up at a CR unless I could drive with a lap time of 103% or better of the fastest car. If I was any slower than that, then it wouldn't be fair to me or to the other racers.

prg

My advice is from a different perspective than most of the above. If you can afford it, I'd jump into the deep end. The PCA perspective is a bit skewed. I'd venture that the vast majority of active racers started out racing not DE'ing. It's not mandatory to have hundreds of track days before you start racing. In fact, it takes a while to get over the DE driving style and develop the needed aggressiveness to stick your nose under someone. I was in a similar situation to you 18 months ago. I'd done 2 DE's and about 15 track days when I went to race school, bought a Formula Mazda, and started racing. I'm not the fastest (nor the slowest) guy out there. Winning is fun when it happens but as long as you've got a couple guys close to your speed to dice with, you'll have a blast. I've no regrets about making the leap to racing.
It's going to cost you more than you think though.

Jim Child

If you don't want to run any slower than 103% of the fastest car that's fine, but the reality is that there are plenty of cars running slower than that in club racing. At Mid Ohio last year, only the first 8 out of 21 F cars in the field were within 103% of the fastest qualifier.

FWIW, despite his relative lack of experience, Mike is already running times that would put him mid-pack in F at Putnam.

Jimbo951

Ok, I stand corrected. I really thought the pack was much tighter.

The real point to my post was to use the CR record book as a benchmark. If your speeds are *reasonable* then you'll probably do ok.

carreracup21

I started racing relatively soon, about 8 months after starting in the green group. I had 30 or so track days by my first race. All you really need is a strong desire to learn. Go after instruction from the best people available and ask tons of questions. Jump in the passenger seat of their cars, see and feel what they do. Get comfortable with your car sliding a bit in corners. Get used to checking every flag station while still driving full tilt in traffic. Spend the money to keep your car mechanically perfect and safe. Good luck with it. It's worth the effort.

jerome951

I wouldn't worry if you can't run lap times similar to the front runners. They run those lap times for several reasons that you won't be able to duplicate your first year.

You will always find someone to race with, be it front, mid, or back of the pack. For me the enjoyment is racing, not finishing up front (as obviously demonstrated by my 2 'last in class' finishes in the 2 club races that I've run). Heck, I should be the HWFM poster boy...

Even if you're slow (like me), just kindly move aside when the leaders lap you. The corner workers at CRs are pretty good at alerting backmarkers when the leaders are approaching.

I think it boils down to confidence in your abilities. If you are confident you can control the car in unusual situations (off-line, sliding, rain, etc.) and can do so without thinking, then you are probably ready. As a test, try this. Find an experienced DE instructor who also club races. Ask him or her to ride with you. Go out and drive at 9-10/10ths with the instructor not saying a word. After a few laps, start a converstation with the instructor about the weather, your car, club racing, etc. just to divert your concentration. Have the instructor compare your 'concentration' laps against your 'diverted attention' laps. If they are similar in smoothness, laptimes, etc. then you may be ready.

Club racing doesn't have to be expensive if you have no delusions of running near the front.

MJR911

Don't let these guys scare you, racing is tons more fun than DE and if you have your head screwed on right you'll be fine. In SCCA you only need to complete 2 racing schools (weekends) and you can get your regional racing license. I've seen guys in PCA DE go racing coming from the white run group. There is a massive spread of driver speed in PCA, I had run times in our old F car that a slow 996 cup car was doing at Sebring the same year!

Another thing to consider is that racing WILL make you faster. You quickly see where guys in the same car are faster and you build up to that. Get the opinion of an instructor or two in your region that Club Races, someone who you respect. I've run night enduros, races, DEs.... and the only time i've ever hit anything was a DE.... go figure.