Track Video from Summit Point
03-28-2005, 10:29 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Brian P
In general, I'd agree, but Summit Point has two turns where one might shift mid-corner. It's hard to say which is the fastest way.
A mid corner shift at the limit of adhesion is most certainly trouble.
My (unsolicited) advice to Todd would be to avoid the mid-corner shifts when possible and to think twice before doing it at higher speeds. Just remember that it might work for you at Summit Point in certain corners, but might get you in trouble at higher speeds, or at another track.
03-28-2005, 10:32 AM
#17
Originally Posted by C4 Guy
My (unsolicited) advice to Todd
Speaking of which, what do you think about my question regarding hand position?
Last edited by TD in DC; 03-28-2005 at 10:48 AM.
03-28-2005, 10:56 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
I noticed that with my steering wheel (the stock 996 three spoke), the spokes of the wheel are exactly at nine and three. This explains why I naturally tend to put my hands at ten and two rather than nine and three. If I put my hands at nine and three, then my thumb goes on top of the wheel (which is fine), but my fingers rest on the back of the spoke.
They certainly looked comfortable.
But that's got nothing to do with your question.....
The hands-on-or-over-the-spokes is personal preference. I think most Rennlisters would agree that's whats most important that you can gently guide the car and you hands can move freely and react quickly to what the feedback the wheel is giving you. On-or-over is really a matter of choice. Just keep in mind the REASON for the hand position.
Personally, I tend to drive with my fingers on the back of the spokes. It's just habit now. (as are other fun track habits like heel-n-toe 'ing my way around town)
03-28-2005, 01:03 PM
#19
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Hey Terry! I recognize your car--watched you running up to 10, you looked very fast--all you solo/yellow guys do! Also think I saw you flagging at the first bridge running down to 7--thanks for your help! I was driving the '81 Platinum SC Targa #44 in Blue Group. Keith Brockman was my Instructor--he was great! The short course was fun--good for practicing the skills in this thread. I look forward to seeing your video. Where will it be posted (are you still with Gold Coast--I've seen your videos on their site)? Regards, Doug
03-28-2005, 09:46 PM
#20
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Todd, some more thoughts;
Using the spokes to pull the wheel down on one side will take less effort than trying to steer with your shoulders by pushing up, or steering by pure hand grip. Given the design of your wheel, this might have to be done with your pinky fingers as they rest above the spokes. If you choose to keep all your fingers wrapped, this will be fine. Being able to pull down on the wheel with the spoke will lessen the likelihood of death grip too.
Regarding shifting, at this point you would either have to feather the throttle and wait for the straight, or do what you are doing. At the pace you are going it may not be an issue, but when you get better and Speed Happens, you might upset the car. This might tend to upset your bowels as a consequence!
If you get a bit quicker, you might find that you need to alter your cornering trajectory so that you create a small straight section between corners where you can decrease side load and secure a safer upshift, then get back into cornering mode again.
When you really start to put it all together and are able to carry more speed INTO such corner sequences, you might find that you can short shift before the turn, the extra speed you carry will keep you from bogging too bad, and from having to shift when you might not ought.
Your semi-long term goal will be to upshift and carry through with foot planted!!
Using the spokes to pull the wheel down on one side will take less effort than trying to steer with your shoulders by pushing up, or steering by pure hand grip. Given the design of your wheel, this might have to be done with your pinky fingers as they rest above the spokes. If you choose to keep all your fingers wrapped, this will be fine. Being able to pull down on the wheel with the spoke will lessen the likelihood of death grip too.
Regarding shifting, at this point you would either have to feather the throttle and wait for the straight, or do what you are doing. At the pace you are going it may not be an issue, but when you get better and Speed Happens, you might upset the car. This might tend to upset your bowels as a consequence!
If you get a bit quicker, you might find that you need to alter your cornering trajectory so that you create a small straight section between corners where you can decrease side load and secure a safer upshift, then get back into cornering mode again.
When you really start to put it all together and are able to carry more speed INTO such corner sequences, you might find that you can short shift before the turn, the extra speed you carry will keep you from bogging too bad, and from having to shift when you might not ought.
Your semi-long term goal will be to upshift and carry through with foot planted!!
03-29-2005, 09:45 AM
#21
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Todd, some more thoughts;
Using the spokes to pull the wheel down on one side will take less effort than trying to steer with your shoulders by pushing up, or steering by pure hand grip. Given the design of your wheel, this might have to be done with your pinky fingers as they rest above the spokes. If you choose to keep all your fingers wrapped, this will be fine. Being able to pull down on the wheel with the spoke will lessen the likelihood of death grip too.
Using the spokes to pull the wheel down on one side will take less effort than trying to steer with your shoulders by pushing up, or steering by pure hand grip. Given the design of your wheel, this might have to be done with your pinky fingers as they rest above the spokes. If you choose to keep all your fingers wrapped, this will be fine. Being able to pull down on the wheel with the spoke will lessen the likelihood of death grip too.
First, thanks to you and all for taking the time to answer my questions. I am playing around with hand position as I drive around town and hope to try a few different things at VIR. Most likely, I will be thinking about so many other things that I will be lucky if I consistently try either approach, but thanks for letting me know that it is not necessarily wrong to have my pinky above the spoke, which would put me closer to 10 and 2 rather than 9 and 3.
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Regarding shifting, at this point you would either have to feather the throttle and wait for the straight, or do what you are doing. At the pace you are going it may not be an issue, but when you get better and Speed Happens, you might upset the car. This might tend to upset your bowels as a consequence!
If you get a bit quicker, you might find that you need to alter your cornering trajectory so that you create a small straight section between corners where you can decrease side load and secure a safer upshift, then get back into cornering mode again.
When you really start to put it all together and are able to carry more speed INTO such corner sequences, you might find that you can short shift before the turn, the extra speed you carry will keep you from bogging too bad, and from having to shift when you might not ought.
Your semi-long term goal will be to upshift and carry through with foot planted!!
If you get a bit quicker, you might find that you need to alter your cornering trajectory so that you create a small straight section between corners where you can decrease side load and secure a safer upshift, then get back into cornering mode again.
When you really start to put it all together and are able to carry more speed INTO such corner sequences, you might find that you can short shift before the turn, the extra speed you carry will keep you from bogging too bad, and from having to shift when you might not ought.
Your semi-long term goal will be to upshift and carry through with foot planted!!
Exiting T1, I was shifting when I was very near to redline in 2nd. I actually hit redline there a few times. At the speeds I was traveling, this did not upset the car, even while it was snowing. But I can fully appreciate that it might, so I should try to avoid shifting while in the corner at all.
During the first day and first half of the second day, I was having difficulties with T1 because it is very bumpy close to the apex. It was not until after Dennis drove my car and showed me the line (the first clip) that I fully understood that T1 is an increasing radius turn with an early apex where all of the bumps come right after the apex: if you apex too late, you hit very bumpy patches (my car scraped) but if you apex just right you miss everything. On the clip where Dennis is driving my car, you can hear me talking about staying on the concrete to avoid the bumps. After I saw how Dennis did it, I was able to hit the earlier apex and miss all the bumps. It felt much better.
During my next trip to Summit Point, I may be able to enter and exit T1 a little faster such that I can try it in 3rd, maybe. That would eliminate the need to shift near the end of the turn.
Thanks,
TD
03-29-2005, 01:56 PM
#22
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Oh, and by the way TD...
Bag the datalogger. You don't need one. You need to concentrate on tuning your physical and subconscious senses - your assometer - not your ability to decipher scribbling. Real time is the ONLY way to sinc action with reaction, cause with effect.
And no more solo running. Too early for such, bar FAR!!! Your learning will come much farther and faster with an instructor. Going solo too early usually only results in hard-wiring in false assumptions and erroneous conclusions. You don't know what you don't know yet. With an instructor you will find out what you don't know much sooner, and also get good strategies for reducing that ignorance.
Good instructors know when Yin & Yang is skewed, usually well before students do. Good instructors also don't sign off fellas in your position... yet!
Think of the drivers you may have seen that have wrecked shortly after their sign-offs. They didn't know what they didn't know yet either. Getting your car strap-slinged onto your trailer and anticipating years of bloated insurance premiums is no way to come to that realization, trust me...
Bag the datalogger. You don't need one. You need to concentrate on tuning your physical and subconscious senses - your assometer - not your ability to decipher scribbling. Real time is the ONLY way to sinc action with reaction, cause with effect.
And no more solo running. Too early for such, bar FAR!!! Your learning will come much farther and faster with an instructor. Going solo too early usually only results in hard-wiring in false assumptions and erroneous conclusions. You don't know what you don't know yet. With an instructor you will find out what you don't know much sooner, and also get good strategies for reducing that ignorance.
Good instructors know when Yin & Yang is skewed, usually well before students do. Good instructors also don't sign off fellas in your position... yet!
Think of the drivers you may have seen that have wrecked shortly after their sign-offs. They didn't know what they didn't know yet either. Getting your car strap-slinged onto your trailer and anticipating years of bloated insurance premiums is no way to come to that realization, trust me...
03-29-2005, 02:59 PM
#23
By the way, on the "shift in a corner strategy". I also try to avoid doing that whenever possible, but there are times and places that it just has to be done. For example, when running the north course at Pocono, you will generally shift from 3rd to 4th somewhere on that NASCAR turn. Out of the relatively few tracks I've been to, that's the only one that I can think of where you have to shift midcorner.
However, at Summit Point, there are 2 turns where I guarantee that you will try shifting mid corner at least once. Anybody who has driven a lap there will know what I'm talking about, and those haven't done any time there will warn us about the perils of doing that shift.
The first place is the turn 1/turn 2 complex: it's an increasing radius turn that is entered in 2nd gear on almost any car. Because of the increasing radius and the length of the turn (it's a 180 degree turn), you can keep accelerating to the point where you will run out of revs yet you will still be in the turn. You will be well past the apex, but not all the way to track out yet. At that point, you can either hold the revs or upshift to 3rd. Of course, the other approach is to enter the turn in 3rd. I submit that any reasonable driver would try both techniques and see what's faster.
The other place where one might shift midcorner is from turn 5 through the rest of the carousel. Again, you enter in 2nd gear and then you go through a series of 5 connected turns with each one getting faster and faster (if you do it right). Eventually, you will run out of revs and need to shift. Like the T1/2 complex, you will try entering in 3rd and experimenting to see which is the fastest way around.
However, at Summit Point, there are 2 turns where I guarantee that you will try shifting mid corner at least once. Anybody who has driven a lap there will know what I'm talking about, and those haven't done any time there will warn us about the perils of doing that shift.
The first place is the turn 1/turn 2 complex: it's an increasing radius turn that is entered in 2nd gear on almost any car. Because of the increasing radius and the length of the turn (it's a 180 degree turn), you can keep accelerating to the point where you will run out of revs yet you will still be in the turn. You will be well past the apex, but not all the way to track out yet. At that point, you can either hold the revs or upshift to 3rd. Of course, the other approach is to enter the turn in 3rd. I submit that any reasonable driver would try both techniques and see what's faster.
The other place where one might shift midcorner is from turn 5 through the rest of the carousel. Again, you enter in 2nd gear and then you go through a series of 5 connected turns with each one getting faster and faster (if you do it right). Eventually, you will run out of revs and need to shift. Like the T1/2 complex, you will try entering in 3rd and experimenting to see which is the fastest way around.
03-29-2005, 03:14 PM
#24
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Oh, and by the way TD...
Bag the datalogger. You don't need one. You need to concentrate on tuning your physical and subconscious senses - your assometer - not your ability to decipher scribbling. Real time is the ONLY way to sinc action with reaction, cause with effect.
And no more solo running. Too early for such, bar FAR!!! Your learning will come much farther and faster with an instructor. Going solo too early usually only results in hard-wiring in false assumptions and erroneous conclusions. You don't know what you don't know yet. With an instructor you will find out what you don't know much sooner, and also get good strategies for reducing that ignorance.
Good instructors know when Yin & Yang is skewed, usually well before students do. Good instructors also don't sign off fellas in your position... yet!
Think of the drivers you may have seen that have wrecked shortly after their sign-offs. They didn't know what they didn't know yet either. Getting your car strap-slinged onto your trailer and anticipating years of bloated insurance premiums is no way to come to that realization, trust me...
Bag the datalogger. You don't need one. You need to concentrate on tuning your physical and subconscious senses - your assometer - not your ability to decipher scribbling. Real time is the ONLY way to sinc action with reaction, cause with effect.
And no more solo running. Too early for such, bar FAR!!! Your learning will come much farther and faster with an instructor. Going solo too early usually only results in hard-wiring in false assumptions and erroneous conclusions. You don't know what you don't know yet. With an instructor you will find out what you don't know much sooner, and also get good strategies for reducing that ignorance.
Good instructors know when Yin & Yang is skewed, usually well before students do. Good instructors also don't sign off fellas in your position... yet!
Think of the drivers you may have seen that have wrecked shortly after their sign-offs. They didn't know what they didn't know yet either. Getting your car strap-slinged onto your trailer and anticipating years of bloated insurance premiums is no way to come to that realization, trust me...
Believe it or not, I agreed with the points you are making before you made this post!
I bought the data logger not because I think it will make me a better driver or that I "need" it at this point, but rather because I am far too fond of gadgets. The DL1 and trackvision just seem like really cool toys, and I can't wait to see how it works. Tony is going to help me set it up tonight.
With respect to the instructor, I agree completely. I actually did not want to drive solo. The problem is that the green groups run on the last runs every day. On the last day, many instructors clear out, so you are faced with a choice: either drive solo (assuming you are signed off), or give up one of your runs (which at Summit Point would have meant losing 1/6 of my track time). When I found out that Dennis needed to leave early, I actually went to look for another instructor. I was told that Potomac region strongly discourages instructors from riding with students of other instructors. Since I was feeling pretty good, I decided to take the solo run anyway. It may not show from the video clips, but I was not trying to push anything, and I was not trying to do anything new.
I faced exactly the same choice at VIR last November at my very first DE. There, I opted to forego my last run rather than run solo. I did not feel as comfortable, and I wanted to end my first DE with fond memories.
Right now, I can hardly think of anything other than VIR coming up this next weekend!
TD
03-29-2005, 03:16 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Brian P
By the way, on the "shift in a corner strategy". I also try to avoid doing that whenever possible, but there are times and places that it just has to be done. For example, when running the north course at Pocono, you will generally shift from 3rd to 4th somewhere on that NASCAR turn. Out of the relatively few tracks I've been to, that's the only one that I can think of where you have to shift midcorner.
However, at Summit Point, there are 2 turns where I guarantee that you will try shifting mid corner at least once. Anybody who has driven a lap there will know what I'm talking about, and those haven't done any time there will warn us about the perils of doing that shift.
The first place is the turn 1/turn 2 complex: it's an increasing radius turn that is entered in 2nd gear on almost any car. Because of the increasing radius and the length of the turn (it's a 180 degree turn), you can keep accelerating to the point where you will run out of revs yet you will still be in the turn. You will be well past the apex, but not all the way to track out yet. At that point, you can either hold the revs or upshift to 3rd. Of course, the other approach is to enter the turn in 3rd. I submit that any reasonable driver would try both techniques and see what's faster.
The other place where one might shift midcorner is from turn 5 through the rest of the carousel. Again, you enter in 2nd gear and then you go through a series of 5 connected turns with each one getting faster and faster (if you do it right). Eventually, you will run out of revs and need to shift. Like the T1/2 complex, you will try entering in 3rd and experimenting to see which is the fastest way around.
However, at Summit Point, there are 2 turns where I guarantee that you will try shifting mid corner at least once. Anybody who has driven a lap there will know what I'm talking about, and those haven't done any time there will warn us about the perils of doing that shift.
The first place is the turn 1/turn 2 complex: it's an increasing radius turn that is entered in 2nd gear on almost any car. Because of the increasing radius and the length of the turn (it's a 180 degree turn), you can keep accelerating to the point where you will run out of revs yet you will still be in the turn. You will be well past the apex, but not all the way to track out yet. At that point, you can either hold the revs or upshift to 3rd. Of course, the other approach is to enter the turn in 3rd. I submit that any reasonable driver would try both techniques and see what's faster.
The other place where one might shift midcorner is from turn 5 through the rest of the carousel. Again, you enter in 2nd gear and then you go through a series of 5 connected turns with each one getting faster and faster (if you do it right). Eventually, you will run out of revs and need to shift. Like the T1/2 complex, you will try entering in 3rd and experimenting to see which is the fastest way around.
those are exactly the two points where I shifted in corners. Your explanation is the same that Dennis gave me.
Thanks,
TD
03-30-2005, 08:36 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
Right now, I can hardly think of anything other than VIR coming up this next weekend! TD
Like you I attended my first DE (in 35 years) last November, only out West here at the Willow Springs short track "Streets of Willow" I too now spend my time waiting and dreaming of the next event, Cal Speedway April 8-10....