View Poll Results: Should PCA adopt a Power to Weight Classification System?
Yes, for GT Classes
8
17.78%
Yes, for all classes including stock
15
33.33%
No, keep the status quo.
16
35.56%
Don't know, don't care
1
2.22%
Doesn't matter dude, either way I''ll kick your butt
5
11.11%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll
Does GTS have it right and PCA wrong?
03-16-2005, 02:39 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Danny, I meant nothing personal. You were out there racing, I wasn't.... I have no room to make personal remarks. I was pointing out that it is not right to compare cars at our level when the driver is the biggest difference. Take a 993 and a 964 with the same pro driver, then we can make some comparisons. I think things are good as they are until then. A 993 was winning D for almost the entire race til the driver made an error.
03-16-2005, 02:40 PM
#33
"Inexpensive Racing" is an oxymoron. We all have to make a decision on what we can afford, but there is always some ***** that wants to buy a win, and PCA is drawing on an inherently wealthy clientele to begin with. There is just a certain amount of money you have to commit to be competitve.
I have less than $25K in my car and it is quite competitive (unfortunately I'm not, so the results are mildly disapointing...but thats another story). I consider that pretty cheap.... somebody else would probably faint spending that much for a race car.... its all relative... but by PCA standards that's close to rock bottom for a 911. I drove the car to the race for years. It can be done, but it isn;t very pleasant.
The idea of a joint use street/race car is also an oxymorom... whats good for one is bad for another its yin and yang. A dual use car is a car that is lousy at both roles. No rule change is going to address the laws of physics.
A few years ago, some friends put together the idea of a 944 spec claiming series. Any competitor can buy any car for $12K. That is the best formula to prevent cheating IMHO. Plus a good driver could make a fortune.... buy a car for $6K win the race with it... have your buddy spread a rumor that you are cheating and sell it to some chump for $12K... you could pretty much quit work and race full time.... ahhhhhhh
I have less than $25K in my car and it is quite competitive (unfortunately I'm not, so the results are mildly disapointing...but thats another story). I consider that pretty cheap.... somebody else would probably faint spending that much for a race car.... its all relative... but by PCA standards that's close to rock bottom for a 911. I drove the car to the race for years. It can be done, but it isn;t very pleasant.
The idea of a joint use street/race car is also an oxymorom... whats good for one is bad for another its yin and yang. A dual use car is a car that is lousy at both roles. No rule change is going to address the laws of physics.
A few years ago, some friends put together the idea of a 944 spec claiming series. Any competitor can buy any car for $12K. That is the best formula to prevent cheating IMHO. Plus a good driver could make a fortune.... buy a car for $6K win the race with it... have your buddy spread a rumor that you are cheating and sell it to some chump for $12K... you could pretty much quit work and race full time.... ahhhhhhh
03-16-2005, 05:53 PM
#34
Instructor
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While I'm one of those lightweight drivers I agree that including the driver in a minimum weight for PCA stock class sounds like a good idea - NASA GTS is doing that this season. I'm very pleased with the GTS rules this year and plan to run many more events with NASA than with PCA for several reasons including regional schedule, cost and the 2 sprint race weekends.
03-17-2005, 08:49 AM
#35
Three Wheelin'
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Getting to the question posted...PCA has a different philosophy on racing. The club events PCA holds are for the various types of enthusiasts. Some do Parade other Concours and of course Club Racing.
With that in mind the club intent is to provide activities aimed at the owners area of intererst. Porsche cars were made to daily drive and take to the track on weekends in general. The fact the street class is so regulated is that it is the intent to provide all members who wish to track the car can do so and still remain a car that is street legal giving those who wish to race but not as a serious business. Where as the GT class is the one for those who wish only to race the car w/unlimited mods.
So rules on street cars must be held to a limited amount to keep the street cars legal and competitive w/others. The mind set is PCA figures if you wish to have a race car go into the GT class if not and just want to race the daily driver then go Street class. Hense "prepared class" became a class for those who wanted a bit more than a street racer.
Removing the carpet is considered a race set up in PCA and the reason is clear....street vs GT. So if you look at the big picture the rules have a line where PCA considers the car more than a street class car because of mods and now put in GT or prepared depending how far the mods go.
So is PCA WRONG....not at all. If you look at a SCCA or NASA car they all look like a race car and are not street legal in general where as a PCA street class car is still a daily car and that is the intent. The others offer a class for street race cars but in reality they are race cars just not all the bells and whistles it could have as a racer. So you have a stripped car in a street class but in the eyes of PCA it is not a daily driver. That is the difference. One is for daily cars the other is a limited version of a daily built to race only but still not a full blown car.
Make sense??!!
With that in mind the club intent is to provide activities aimed at the owners area of intererst. Porsche cars were made to daily drive and take to the track on weekends in general. The fact the street class is so regulated is that it is the intent to provide all members who wish to track the car can do so and still remain a car that is street legal giving those who wish to race but not as a serious business. Where as the GT class is the one for those who wish only to race the car w/unlimited mods.
So rules on street cars must be held to a limited amount to keep the street cars legal and competitive w/others. The mind set is PCA figures if you wish to have a race car go into the GT class if not and just want to race the daily driver then go Street class. Hense "prepared class" became a class for those who wanted a bit more than a street racer.
Removing the carpet is considered a race set up in PCA and the reason is clear....street vs GT. So if you look at the big picture the rules have a line where PCA considers the car more than a street class car because of mods and now put in GT or prepared depending how far the mods go.
So is PCA WRONG....not at all. If you look at a SCCA or NASA car they all look like a race car and are not street legal in general where as a PCA street class car is still a daily car and that is the intent. The others offer a class for street race cars but in reality they are race cars just not all the bells and whistles it could have as a racer. So you have a stripped car in a street class but in the eyes of PCA it is not a daily driver. That is the difference. One is for daily cars the other is a limited version of a daily built to race only but still not a full blown car.
Make sense??!!
03-17-2005, 04:07 PM
#37
Race Director
Dal,
I agree that is the PCA idea. The problem is that it is simply not reality.
How many of the stock class cars in PCA are street driven let alone daily driven? Maybe in the early years many, but now only rare few. Most folks race in a stock class not because the car is their dailer driver or street driven. No most folks race in a stock class due to competition and cost. They feel there are either more cars to run against or their car is more competitive and/or the overall costs are lower for the car. Folks run GT mostly because they love to tinker or want the drive the fastest car possible with virtually no limitation.
Manny you say there are other groups out there. Yes there are and I have raced with a few different ones. PCA is different from all of them mostly in the way events are run. A PCA Club race is an EVENT, not just a raceweekend. The atmosphere is very different as are the 13/13 rules and track demeanor. There are lot of nice things about PCA club racing that make it appealing and different from SCCA, NASA, or any other local group and rules is only 1 of them.
I agree that is the PCA idea. The problem is that it is simply not reality.
How many of the stock class cars in PCA are street driven let alone daily driven? Maybe in the early years many, but now only rare few. Most folks race in a stock class not because the car is their dailer driver or street driven. No most folks race in a stock class due to competition and cost. They feel there are either more cars to run against or their car is more competitive and/or the overall costs are lower for the car. Folks run GT mostly because they love to tinker or want the drive the fastest car possible with virtually no limitation.
Manny you say there are other groups out there. Yes there are and I have raced with a few different ones. PCA is different from all of them mostly in the way events are run. A PCA Club race is an EVENT, not just a raceweekend. The atmosphere is very different as are the 13/13 rules and track demeanor. There are lot of nice things about PCA club racing that make it appealing and different from SCCA, NASA, or any other local group and rules is only 1 of them.
03-17-2005, 09:39 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
Jack,
If you want to be able to run big brakes, chips, fiberglass, etc. and run with other 944's, check out the 944 Cup at www.44cup.com
The southeast chapter runs in your area regularly.
Dal, I feel your pain - I have the same problem with my 968 engined 944. The only competitive venues that I have are either 944 cup or GTS challenge. Yes, I made my own bed by choosing to race a car I had originally built for DE is my own fault, but for a car that is essentially an E 968 (bigger brakes), having to run a legitimate street car (inspected, legal emissions, and plates, though with a cage) in GT-3 is utterly unappealing.
I'm with the 944 guys and others that there should be some accomodation in weight and/or class in PCA for cars that have interiors removed but are otherwise stock - is the ultimate goal "preservation" of the cars or offering members the venue to compete (in a competitive class!) if they choose.
Besides, when I have friends who are checking with the national scruts to see "what percentage of the fins" on the AC condenser can legally be removed and still have the system be considered "capable of function" and hence legal for E stock is a load of BS.
If you want to be able to run big brakes, chips, fiberglass, etc. and run with other 944's, check out the 944 Cup at www.44cup.com
The southeast chapter runs in your area regularly.
Dal, I feel your pain - I have the same problem with my 968 engined 944. The only competitive venues that I have are either 944 cup or GTS challenge. Yes, I made my own bed by choosing to race a car I had originally built for DE is my own fault, but for a car that is essentially an E 968 (bigger brakes), having to run a legitimate street car (inspected, legal emissions, and plates, though with a cage) in GT-3 is utterly unappealing.
I'm with the 944 guys and others that there should be some accomodation in weight and/or class in PCA for cars that have interiors removed but are otherwise stock - is the ultimate goal "preservation" of the cars or offering members the venue to compete (in a competitive class!) if they choose.
Besides, when I have friends who are checking with the national scruts to see "what percentage of the fins" on the AC condenser can legally be removed and still have the system be considered "capable of function" and hence legal for E stock is a load of BS.
03-18-2005, 08:03 AM
#40
Racer
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The only restriction in the GT classes should be min. weight with no HP limits.
Lets say 2500lbs for GT2
Lets say 2500lbs for GT2
It would not be a bad thing to hold motor cost down AND give "DE" cars a place to go. (Scrutinizing and at track dynos are the major issue) so people would not have to go backwards to enter club racing. I think we could better use the "S" designation How about GT S = 2500 pound cars with HP levels that equal at least 2 seasons 60 hours and then R = go for it. Just to pick Numbers out of the air GT1S 400 RWHP, GT2S 300 RWHP GT3S = 270 RWHP etc.
Oh yeah, if we go to min. wts please weight car WITH DRIVER !!
03-18-2005, 08:08 AM
#41
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The problem, as stated is checking HP. Weight is easy to check at the track. Keeping min weight (w/ driver 
) stops the big $$ carbon fiber stuff , cut the car apart to the point of maybe not being safe in a crash.
) stops the big $$ carbon fiber stuff , cut the car apart to the point of maybe not being safe in a crash.
03-18-2005, 08:19 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
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I bet I take a beating on this opinion! I like the weight of the car minus driver! My only cost free modification. My peers weigh at least 50+ lbs more than I do.
And it can keep us from obesity! lol
Let the flogging begin!
And it can keep us from obesity! lolLet the flogging begin!
03-18-2005, 08:30 AM
#43
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My tuner just got the latest RW dyno. It is a compact hydraulic unit, and can be expanded to due FWD. It is pickup truck portable I believe but it costs 100K. You could spot check cars coming off the track easy enough but having club racing buy one or hiring some one to be at the events would not be cheap. Also there would be possible trouble with the guys with advanced management ECUs (Motec etc) my car has a switch with 3 positions for (boost/ injection maps) I imagine this can be done with natural motors also. My guy is a real jolly joker the three positions are labeled $ - $$ - $$$
03-18-2005, 09:32 AM
#44
Mr. Excitement
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Well said about dynos. I am a Tech chair and I have a hard enough time getting and manning common and inexpensive scales at the Club Races that I work much less getting a portable dyno and all that goes into it. Who will pay for and maintain the dyno? The region? Some, make that most could not afford the initial cost or have a place to keep it when not in use. Dynos have to be set up, calibrated and used right in order to get true readings. Little things like tire pressure can skew the #s. You build a nice tight to the book motor and I ding you for being a toe over HP just because I am using an middling accurate portable dyno being run by a once a year volinteer? Or does the Club hire a company to come in and do the measuring with their own equipment? Ether way it looks like more $ and variables being added to what is intended to be a fun weekend amateur pastime.
Read the rules before you start cutting and wrenching. Yes, as the rules are now written sometimes a particular car will not be a good contender anywhere. As an example, a stock 69 912 is in J along with the 69 911T The 911T is going to EAT the 912 with more HP and torque. So you build a hot little motor for the 912 and go get killed in GT6 by the 1700 pound $$$ prep 356s. No realistic amount of money is going to get a 912 down to 1700# and you and the 356s are using the same motors, tricks and parts.
Too funny about the driver weight. I see cars that have $$$ bits that save 10# or so that are owned by drivers that have also spent $$$ on food. Some folks could save a lot of weight by lightening the nut that holds the wheel.
Read the rules before you start cutting and wrenching. Yes, as the rules are now written sometimes a particular car will not be a good contender anywhere. As an example, a stock 69 912 is in J along with the 69 911T The 911T is going to EAT the 912 with more HP and torque. So you build a hot little motor for the 912 and go get killed in GT6 by the 1700 pound $$$ prep 356s. No realistic amount of money is going to get a 912 down to 1700# and you and the 356s are using the same motors, tricks and parts.
Too funny about the driver weight. I see cars that have $$$ bits that save 10# or so that are owned by drivers that have also spent $$$ on food. Some folks could save a lot of weight by lightening the nut that holds the wheel.
