Lemming

No offense was taken, I thought that you had inserted a good pun in the original post.

I agree completely on doing it right. I didn't the first time around as I went the way of the lemmings when they said that Koni sports, 200lbs springs, and M030 sways would be more than enough for DE's. Well, maybe, but I seem to be taxing the system and need/want more. Also, at that time, I didn't know that I'd be turning it into a track only car.

Another problem, I don't have an unlimited budget and I also have other items on the car that I need to deal with (finish the roll cage, and drop some more weight with fiberglass replacement parts).

joseph mitro

so what does the "lemming" mentality mean?

i'm interested in seeing how development of your 924 goes. i would love to drop my car's weight, but it will put me in a different class IF i ever decide to race the car. (i'm so far from that right now). my car is truly a street and track car, not track only, so my suspension setup is fine for me to simply learn how to drive. then i can trade-in later for a more powerful car and better suspension. heck, i have a stock M3 that could become an awesome track car in a few years!!

so is the bilstein escort cup setup a true race setup? if so, it looks like a really good deal for what you get.

924RACR

LOL! To clarify, the V36 struts should bolt right up, since we have VW A1 chassis front suspension, and these struts are designed for exactly that. I'm 99% sure they will, just can't say 100% since I haven't gotten a set yet. They are also threaded-body, so no ride height kit is needed, only a set of 2.5" race springs and upper spring seats (such as Paragon sells).

BTW, I'd put a diff in before wasting money on fiberglass. No question about it. None of us has unlimited budget, BTW... best quote I heard on (racing) budgets was "Am I within budget? Of course! 2007 budget, anyway..."

I wouldn't classify the Escort setup as quite full-race, unless you can get the rear shocks with spherical bearings - those rubber bushings aren't helping the case. Fine for a spec suspension, though. I'm using an off-the-shelf 46mm Bilstein race monotube in the rear, user-revalvable, with 1/2" bearings at each end, but that required some fiddly stuff to match it up to my metric suspension mounts (spacers and such). OTOH, being a generic circle-track shock, they're stupid cheap, actually nearly as cheap as street Koni yellows (like within $20), but I don't generally recommend them due to the fact that they're not 100% bolt-in like the others are. Most people don't have ready access to the required fabrication stuff...

Geo

As Lemming alluded to, if you ask around for a track/DE/race suspension suggestion, you'll most likely get:

Koni yellows (meaning the street variety) or Bilstein sport (also street variety)
400 lb front coilvoers
30mm rear t-bars (or similar total rate coilvoers possibly)
M030 swaybars
Urethane bushings or maybe Delrin if someone is feeling adventurous

That is Ok for a dual purpose car. But for a track only car that is really not a very good set-up. OK, so my car is not done and I'm not speaking from experience here, but I've done a fair amount of research AND I know we were running higher rates in our much lighter weight SE-R race car an plan to run considerably higher rates. Absolutely NO doubt in my mind that a race car (for sure) or dedicated track car should have higher rates. I came to the conclusion that 500lb front springs was bare minimum and I'd rather have 550-600. I chose a slightly softer rear t-bar because if I guessed wrong I could alway add roll stiffness with swaybars. If I guess wrong on the hight side I was SOL.

The Koni race damper or Advance Design are solid choices that most DEers don't even think about or in many cases even know about.

Also, one good reason for higher rates is the front of the 924/944 uses McPherson struts and when lowering them you can get into a nasty part of the camber curve and the pros today running street tire race cars with McPherson struts are running ungodly high spring rates just to minimize the camber change (like 1000 lb springs and higher). So, even a 600 lb spring doesn't seem very high when you look at current best practices.

M758

Well,
Geo and Vaughan are right in all they say. However in 944-spec we limit the suspensions to that "lemming" set-up. (Koni yellows, 350 f, 30mm rear, paragon camber places, delrin & poly bushings, welt sways)

It works quite well for our cars on the track and has the added bouns of being rather easy to aquire and run. Nothing fancy. Of course purpose of 944-spec is not to make the fastest 944's around, but to make the car relativlty fast and accessible for many so that we can race on a level playing field.

While it may be simple to find better components in places. This lemming set-up is probably much easier to police and control and this achieves or series objectives quite well. Racers also spend lest time farting around with set-up and spend more time where it does the most good. Driving skills.

If you are in DE and maybe what to race the best place to spend time, money and effort is behind the wheel. Pick a basic set-up and run it. Drive every event you can leave the set-up the same. You will fine that you will gain more and more speed simply from driving better. Then after a while you can optimize the set-up for your driving and then actually gain real speed. Until then guys that have been driving the "lemming" set-up will be runing circles around you since they are getting 95 to 99% of the car's potenial out vs you getting 80% of your "super set-up" The big problem is you won't even know it and probaly change your set-up again looking for more speed missing the really adjustment and that is the driver.

PS... Vaughan has been racing his 924 for long enough that he should well versed in getting alot from his car. So steping up is his best interests. Geo also has plenty of racing background,his only limitaion being limited 944 seat time.

Geo

Just so nobody misunderstands, if I were administering the 944 Spec class, I would do the same thing. While not a lot cheaper, it's certainly easier on the participant and administrators and tech folks alike. Spec classes are great for being able to limit such things. My comments only related to more open rules, or no rules such as in DE.

Other than spherical bearings, the race suspension can be had for just about the same price. The t-bars and front coilovers are the same price. The dampers vary some, but a good set of race dampers aren't much more expensive and with a little experience should make a big difference. The Koni (race) and Advance Design set-ups are the set-ups are pretty much the same price. I don't know about the Bilsteins, but I'd wager they are similar. All three should be a major improvement over the street performance Koni yellows.

Swaybars are another story entirely and we could even have a holy war discussion over big swaybars vs high spring rates. In my case I may start out with stock swaybars (perhaps modified slightly for some adjustability) with heavy spring rates and eventually building 3-piece sways. Personally, I consider the swaybars the least important part of the equation. Other than stock they are adjustable and again we can debate swaybars vs heavy spring rates.

joseph mitro

this all proves i just have so much to learn. as they say.....the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

i guess i'll stop giving so much advice and try to listen more. oh wait, that's what my wife told me to do...

Lemming

Looks like I've made up my mind and have an order in for Ledas (single adjustable oil coilovers front and back). My plan is to keep the torsion bars but to negate their effect (either by machining them down or grinding off the teeth). In the end I compromised on the springs and am going with 400 in front and 450 rear, I can also increase these rates after I find the money to start replacing rubber bushings.

RedlineMan

Hey Tim;

You are one of the most brilliant guys I've ever come across. Your logic is faultless, and your choice, sublime. Um... I'll let you know when they come in!

Yes, Tim and I have been working behind the scenes, and put together a nice package. We are building his Ledas with all the standard features, plus Heim joint ends and gas reservoir ports in case he wants to go wild some day and turn them into remote gas reservoir, or even the top dog double adjustables.

I went from stock to this same setup, and it has been a blissful 4 years. I am now ready for solid pickup points, which Tim has so graciously helped me afford!

924RACR

LOL! Yeah, from what I've heard I don't think you'll be upset with the Ledas - should see a marked improvement from the Konis. I've contemplated getting a set myself, just haven't been able to put aside that chunk of change yet/justify the expense. I'm not even racing on a 924S budget!

RedlineMan

Indeed...

It CAN be done successfully on a more limited financial scale, but you have to nail yourself down to a much more finite range of options in terms of damping for spring rate, etc. Then, neither will you have the huge damping adjustment range at your disposal. THAT is the thing that has been the most rewarding part of owning these. VERY fine tuning is a simple matter, and I only have the single adjust!

One of these days when my car is all solid bearing'd, I'll get my remote gassers converted to DOUBLE adjust!!