Bull

Kurt, I appreciate your efforts to get the facts on the table and I really do appreciate and prefer the questions. It helps us get past the assumptions and sweeping, incorrect statements. I, for one, listen to all of the constructive criticisim I receive.

I'm not sure we are so different from what you do, until we get to the philosophy of having everyone do a little work. Here are the areas within which the work assignments can fall:

Tech - both pre-event tech inspections (free) held prior to each event, and tech every track day morning....usually for 1 to 1.5 hours (depending on size of the event). Any late arrivals are usually handled by Z-Man and a couple other volunteers (if they have the time). Z-Man coming at you with a torque wrench at 6:45am gets you wide awake! When tech is over for the morning, the tech line workers are done for the day, but they do work each morning, with exceptions for car problems, etc.

Staging - usually 2-4 people checking cars, drivers, run groups, etc. prior to those cars entering the track. It always amazes me how many people forget windows, trunks, hoods, sunroofs and get confused and show up for the wrong run group. This is a function where people are assigned for one of the track days, with the assigned team usually being split into AM and PM shifts. Enough people are assigned each day so that they can release each person for their scheduled run groups (or car issues, etc.).

Pit Out - usually 2 people stationed at the end of pit lane, controlling the entry of the cars onto the hot track by making certain that the cars are properly spaced. Here people are also assigned for one of the event days, with the Steward splitting AM and PM shifts most of the time. No run time is missed.

Front Gate - Usually 2 people who serve two purposes (at least). First, and we believe most important, is getting EVERYONE who enters the PCA event area to sign the waivers. We are told that that having everyone sign is required in order to not void the PCA Insurance for the event. These people also distribute information regarding the event, event bracelets, etc., along with giving directions, etc. Same thing with work assignments....one day of the event, with AM/PM shifts.

Tower - In out Tower operations we conduct all radio communications with the NNJR Track Operations Group (Track Chair, all Stewards, etc.), the Chief Instructors, and with the Flag Marshall and his/her corner workers, fire-rescue, Track Management, etc. This is almost always done over two seperate radios with action sometimes on both radios simultaneously. We also run the official clock, keeping the event running on time and adjusting (equally) time when we experience down-time due to off-track excursions, etc. The Tower workers also run the PA system, calling run groups to Staging, calling for volunteer Instructors, announcing schedule changes, asking for parts/helpers for car issues, telling people what time the bar opens at the track dinner, etc. Finally, we keep all of the event logs and records in Tower during the event...timing, spins, car # changes, driver changes, Instructor changes, sign-offs, etc. Here, people are also assigned to work one day of the event. Due to the number of people required to operate the various activities that go on in Tower, we often can't split the group into AM/PM shifts (BUT, Tower is usually heated/air conditioned and becomes a popular place to be at many events!). It appears crowded when the Instructor (Red) run group is on the track (no workers on track), but we end up with the 3 or 4 people required at any time when we are rotating people in and out for their scheduled runs. Again, nobody misses run time and we shuffle people when a car problem must be attended to, etc.

We try to let people "volunteer" for the work assignment of their choice via our Tech Inspector's Workshop and Track Operations Group pre season meetings, which happen to be coming up this Sunday, 3/13. People can attend, hear about each function and sign-up for the function they would like to perform at track events. Otherwise, I believe the Track Chair attemps to rotate people amongst the various functions, with each event, in order to have them gain experience in each function. People can, and often do, let the Stewards at an event know that they prefer a particular function and we try to make that happen, where possible, at the next events.

I'm sorry for the length of this post. I am trying to be as complete and factual as I can be. If I missed something, or mis-spoke, I hope others will correct me.

So, that is how we do it at NNJR. Certainly not the only way to run a track event, but the way that works best for us.

Bull

I'm sorry, I should have said that we have looked at this question several times over the past few years. I didn't mean to leave the impression that this was new information for me. I also attend many other Region's events and enjoy them too.

Regarding spins at VIR, are you suggesting that how we schedule work assignments would have some effect on the number of spins? I don't see it. It is the number of excursions that often causes us to need our workers to coordinate recovery from those "events" and keep things on time.

In the interest of accurate information, our "Safety Chair" did not even attend VIR, let alone spin or get "sent home". I work every day and track all such happenings. What are you referring to?

Darren

The spins have no relevance to work assignments. Work assignments don't make a safer event.

racer

Wow.. what a loaded subject! Can I fan the flames a bit?

Just a few points I would like to throw out there:

I believe part of the struggle is number of entrants. At some events, you can have as few as 70 people. It seems most of the NNJR events seem to have about 200 drivers. 200 is a heck of a lot to manage and keep track of.

NNJR runs its events like a "club" and not as a "3rd party organizer" or "professional school". You are part of a club, whose strength and sucess comes from its members. Being involved is part of the fun. If all I want to do is drive my car I could go SCCA or Skip Barber, or tracquest/car guys etc. I like being part of a club. If my spending an hour or two per day per event makes the event run better I will gladly help out.

I instruct for various regions. I do it because I enjoy teaching people, meeting folks and spending time on the track. Before I became an instructor, I think I was one of a handfull who actually enjoyed flagging. What better way to learn more about a track then to be 20 feet from it. Watching other drivers. Seeing their lines. What works and doesn't and gleam information to make me a better driver. I can't imagine "hangin around" (or insert whatever one does during their paddock downtime) can be as informative, social, or constructive to the "good of the group" as a work assignment.

Yes, sometimes work assignments are not "family friendly". I think clubs try to accomodate this, but I also think it is the entrants responsiblity to realize there might be limitations and to plan accordingly. That may mean not going to certain events or needing to organize communal efforts to address a programs shortcommings.

As Bob has repeated there are many ways to run an event. NNJR has their way.

Bull

We agree, they don't make a safer event on-track, which is why I wondered why the on-track driver problems would be brought up in this discussion.

I understand that people differ regarding whether work assignments make for a safer event off-track, and I understand why...and have never had a problem with that.

One more time, I simply wanted the process followed by NNJR to be accurately described. I neither designed the process, nor have the authority to change the process. I have passed on the views experessed in this thread to those who do make those decisions. Thanks for letting us know how you feel.

Brian P

As Bob as eloquently stated, NNJR's policy works well for them. I don't think anybody would dispute that NNJR runs a great event and the only quibble I often hear is about why people are required to work. However, by being the biggest region and running one of the most succesful DE programs in the country, I think they might be facing different issues than some of the other clubs.

For example, their events at big tracks that can hold many cars get easily sold out and often on the first day. For smaller tracks, there are times that many first day applicants get denied. And, this is with a work assignment policy that nobody really enjoys doing. Can you imagine how many more applications would be received on the first day and how many more people would have to be denied if there were no working? In some respects the work assignment policy helps mitigate that.

By means of contrast, look at the situation that Potomac had a few years ago. From reading their website, it sounds like they were hugely oversubcribed to all of their events and they had to institute a lottery system. I'm not going to try to argue whether that's better or worse, but it's just an example that different things work for different clubs.

And, as mentioned before, the work assignments does force the members of the club to get to know each other. When you have a relatively small region, maybe everybody already knows each other. In NNJR, I believe there is something like 1000 people who do at least one DE event per year. I think it's great that there is a system in place that basically forces those people to meet one another.

NNJR has an intelligent group of people running the club who have been doing it for years. I fully believe that they could easily run the event without requiring work assignments if they wanted to. I just think that they are looking at a bigger picture and trying to solve those problems, and work assignments is a good way to solve those problems.

Perhaps this is why the people in charge are very flexible about working. If they really didn't know how to run an event without those workers, it would be much more rigid.

To answer some of your questions... The basic policy is that if you have a good excuse (like car troubles, wife is in labor, etc.), you are usually told to go tend to the situation and the person in charge of the work assignment figures something out. Because there is an abundance of workers, it's easy to adjust for that. However, if you decided that you just didn't want to show up to your assignment, the usual policy is that you also just made a decision to watch your next run group from the paddock. Simply put, if everybody has to work, then people can't decide that the rules don't apply to them.

And... if you are working the last day of a far away event, tell the guy in charge about it on the first day. I've been the "guy in charge" a few times, and I'm willing to bend over backwards to help you out. Heck, a lot of times I ended up just staying a bit later so that a worker could go home early. Usually if I know about the problem ahead of time, I can switch work assignments around and ensure that somebody who lives close by gets the Sunday assignment. If you tell me at lunch on Sunday that you are planning to leave at 1PM... well, I have a lot less sympathy for that.

kurt M

Bob W, Thanks for the informative reply and sorry to stir up the silt. It sounds like NNJR and Potomac suffer much the same “problem” in having a large, popular, over subscribed DE program. We have the same issues for the most part and cover them in our own ways. Both clubs do the job just in somewhat different ways. We too would like to think that we have a well run and safe program and most of the feedback goes that way.


It looks like you have some prior training for certain assignments and that helps make sense for me. I was thinking that I would not want a gang of nice enough and willing but untrained people looking cars over for the Grid Tech or manning a corner.

Yes, Potomac tried a lottery and it was just flooded too. It was inspired by folks not being able to get in and by people signing up for all year and then canceling any that they could not go to with short notice. That caused a huge shift in planning just prior to each event with adding new entrants and all that went with it. Potomac now has a well designed on line registration and it gets hit hard the second an event “unlocks” for signup. We also split up some of the chair (steward) positions to make each more manageable for the long term. This lets folks stay in a position longer and become proficient.

Up till now my info on your system was anecdotal only and along the lines of “NNJR is well run but their #$%@# busy work sucks”, thanks for taking the time to inform and to do so publicly.

"Y’all" come on down and drive with us sometime. We should be able to find something to do.

Kurt

Bull

Kurt, I have never heard anything but the best about Potomac's events. Several of my friends are coming to one of your events in a couple of days. Unfortunately, my schedule wouldn't allow it. But, it will happen sometime this year. See you then! BTW, put those guys to work!

DrJupeman

Darren, I am the NNJR Safety Chair and I was not at VIR in November. I didn't spin at all. I already was at home. I never even made the trip.

To clarify what I believe the misconception is:

There is a named "Safety Chair" for each event but that person isn't, unless it is me, the "NNJR Safety Chair". They are the "event Safety Chair". Syntax to some, perhaps, but I wanted to set the record straight and keep my name clean because if you go to NNJR's site and "Contact Us" you will see my name as Safety Chair. I'd prefer my driving reputation be improved through the Internet (have you not heard of the legend of DrJupeman and his faithful steed Tubbo? ) rather than hurt by it... You can blame me for a lot of things, but spinning at VIR isn't one of them...

Bull

The Dr. speaks the truth....he is guilty of A LOT of other things, just not spinning (anywwhere, actually). I never speak of these "other things", unless at a track event and someone has a cold beer, of course!

38D

I am actually old enough to remember DrJupe's last spin

It's been good to see that the facts about NNJR's program have already been straightened out by the capable Bull, Zman, DrJupe and BrianP, but I'll my $0.02 anyway...

I think if you were to do an NNJR event that you would really like it. I've done ~75 DE days with NNJR and always had a great time. I've also run with several other regions & clubs, and they are different, but fun too.

In general, the work assignments hasn't bothered me. Oh sure, when it's 35 degrees at Lime Rock and raining, it's not that fun to stand at pit out, but that's hardly the norm. I also agree with Racer, that I actually liked flagging (in fact I remember a certain someone spinning at the uphill while I was flagging ...and no it wasn't DrJupe!).

NNJR runs a well structured, fun and safe event. Do yourself a favor and try one.

Darren

Charlie, sorry I wasn't talking about you -- and I probably shouldn't get into naming names.

Z-man

You have peaked my curiosity about this Darren. The tech chair is often called the safety tech chair. Now while I did leave VIR early last Novebmer, it wasn't because of spins - I had to get home to get to work the next day! (For those keeping score at home, I have a total of 1 spin in the log book my whole career - that was Lime Rock last April. It did take TWO Tow trucks to pull me out of the mud, primarily because the first one pulled up next to me and got stuck himself!) But I diverge...

Back to VIR: The two safety/chief stewards of the event I know well. I did leave around 2:00pm the last day, but I did not hear of any issues with either of them spinning.

If you wouldn't mind, can you PM me the person who you believe was the safety chair that spun and got sent home from VIR? Again, it seems that there is some mis-information floating around here.

kurtm: Thanks for the replies. I am sorry if I sound defensive about NNJR, but when I see acusastions that are unfounded about NNJR, it does rub me wrong - it's human nature. That said, I'd like to dialogue with you, perhaps via email about the structure of your tech - perhaps some information exchange would be helpful.

Gotta go- I have some prep work to do for this weekend's tech workshop!

-Z-man.

TD in DC

As a novice, my opinion probably should not count for much, but I thoroughly enjoyed NNJR's event at VIR last November. It was my first track event (apart from Potomac's HPDC at Summit Point). I learned a lot, met some great people, and became even more addicted to this sport. I also learned that my suspension needed to be tuned, which was completed last weekend (rear PSS9s set too soft and at different settings). Apart from working on the last day when everyone wanted to go home, I enjoyed the work assignments because I got the chance to talk to some good people. I am going to volunteer to help at Region 2's trip to VIR coming up. In any event, thanks to NNJR from a newbie.

Thanks also to Kurt M. for helping me out a couple of weekends ago. I now have a Motive Bleeder to add to my collection.

Larry Herman

From a 20+ year veteran of DE's (and some club racing) I have to say that the November event at VIR was well run, and though a little crowded, had a reasonable amount of track time. Everyone there from Riesentoter had a great time, and except for Emmerick setting the grass on fire, had no problems at all. We will be back in force this coming November.