are harnesses street legal?
02-21-2005, 01:09 AM
#16
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I wear harnesses only on the road and track. I hop in the Audi and I just don't feel the same security with a 3 point belt.
I agree, harnesses without a roll bar, is probably dangerous and defeats some of the designed safety features.
A helmet is not required with a roll bar - if your head is that far back, you are in serious trouble. A roll cage is different - this is generally handled through padding. I notice Porsche GT-2 Clubsport, a road legal vehicle in Europe, uses padding. Not sure I agree with that approach, but Porsche obviously thinks differently.
I agree, harnesses without a roll bar, is probably dangerous and defeats some of the designed safety features.
A helmet is not required with a roll bar - if your head is that far back, you are in serious trouble. A roll cage is different - this is generally handled through padding. I notice Porsche GT-2 Clubsport, a road legal vehicle in Europe, uses padding. Not sure I agree with that approach, but Porsche obviously thinks differently.
02-21-2005, 01:15 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by APKhaos
Are 5 point harnesses really safer for street use in an otherwise stock car?
The issue that always comes up is that harnesses are part of a system. They will hold you firmly upright in place, rather than letting you slide all over like the 3 point will do, but this can make things worse in some accidents.
In a roll over, without a rollbar or cage, the roofline may well collapse. A 3 point will let you slide sideways to avoid the crush. A harness won't.
The Rennlister who drives this car escaped with very minor injuries.
A harness probaly would have resulted in serious injuries, or worse.
Liek Rich said, use your oem belts on the street. Keep the harnesses in the car if you want the bling and don't mind dealing with the inconvenience.
The issue that always comes up is that harnesses are part of a system. They will hold you firmly upright in place, rather than letting you slide all over like the 3 point will do, but this can make things worse in some accidents.
In a roll over, without a rollbar or cage, the roofline may well collapse. A 3 point will let you slide sideways to avoid the crush. A harness won't.
The Rennlister who drives this car escaped with very minor injuries.
A harness probaly would have resulted in serious injuries, or worse.
Liek Rich said, use your oem belts on the street. Keep the harnesses in the car if you want the bling and don't mind dealing with the inconvenience.
02-21-2005, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by APKhaos
....
Been looking for some evidence as to whether the "thrash" worked and you made it to VIR... judging from the post time (unless you were surfing at the Hotel) you didin't??? Sorry I couldn't stay longer to help, but looked like there were enough "cooks"...
02-21-2005, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DGaunt
I agree with James. I have never seen an EMT w/o sharp sissors and/or a knife. 'Course there is no guarantee that an EMT would be first on scene. Might be a citizen of a police officer who left his pocket knife at home that day. Again, as James said, I think a well installed 5/6 pt. harness would reduce the chance that one would need an EMT. Reminds me of the big debate on airbags after a couple of ppl. were killed by them. As the ISAAC site says, any safety device can kill in special circumstances.
02-21-2005, 10:27 AM
#20
Originally Posted by JBH
A roll cage is different - this is generally handled through padding. I notice Porsche GT-2 Clubsport, a road legal vehicle in Europe, uses padding. Not sure I agree with that approach, but Porsche obviously thinks differently.
Basically, roll cage and helmetless do not mix well. The thread also mentioned studies that showed even minor fender benders could be fatal in a roll cage equipped car without a helmet. The problem is that the head is too close to the cage and therefore it's very likely to hit the cage.
Also, depending on the setup with the roll bar, I wouldn't say that it's a certainty that the head won't hit it. From seeing some of the crash dummy videos, it's simply amazing how much movement there is in the cabin.
02-21-2005, 11:05 AM
#21
In newer cars, the crash zones, belts, airbags, seats and padding are all designed as a system to work together.... change one component and you no longer have a system. I tend to trust Porsche engineers who have extensively and successfully tested the crash components over opinions of guys like us over a beer.
On older cars, it is less clear. I street drive my SC racecar, and use the (27 year old!) 3-points with the race seat, but they do not fit properly, and I have the SFI padded rollcage 3 inches from my (unprotected) head....!!!
My solution? Just bought a truck and trailer... no more street driving. Without the full track system in place, the car is just too dangerous IMHO.
I think if you have stock seats, use the factory belts (see other threads for opinions on using 5-points with stock seats) with a race seat, I would use the 5-points, cops be damned... I suspect there are few cops who would nail you for being too well contained.... although there may be some who resent people driving "race cars" on the street and look for anything to write you up.
On older cars, it is less clear. I street drive my SC racecar, and use the (27 year old!) 3-points with the race seat, but they do not fit properly, and I have the SFI padded rollcage 3 inches from my (unprotected) head....!!!
My solution? Just bought a truck and trailer... no more street driving. Without the full track system in place, the car is just too dangerous IMHO.
I think if you have stock seats, use the factory belts (see other threads for opinions on using 5-points with stock seats) with a race seat, I would use the 5-points, cops be damned... I suspect there are few cops who would nail you for being too well contained.... although there may be some who resent people driving "race cars" on the street and look for anything to write you up.
02-21-2005, 11:37 AM
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A few years back, I was pulled over at a seatbelt roadside check while wearing harnesses (I hadn't installed the stock seatbelt receiver after putting in race seats). The cop looked into the car and saw the race seat, the harnesses mounted to the rollbar, etc and it went kinda like this:
Cop: "Where do you race?"
Me: "mostly Mosport and Mt Tremblant" (I figured telling I only do "DE" would confuse the matter).
Cop: "OK, go on"
And I left. I've since installed my seatbelts because they are more convient to use on the street.
Cop: "Where do you race?"
Me: "mostly Mosport and Mt Tremblant" (I figured telling I only do "DE" would confuse the matter).
Cop: "OK, go on"
And I left. I've since installed my seatbelts because they are more convient to use on the street.
02-21-2005, 01:11 PM
#23
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I have a rollbar, seats and harnesses and still use the stock belts for driving on public roads. Before reinstalling my street belts, I used harnesses for about a week. I would go through the 4-pt drill every time I hopped in and out of my car to refuel, hit the ATM, etc. and it got old fast. After a while, I'm certain I would've looked for opportunities to avoid using them altogether.
And I'd agree with comments suggesting that harnesses without adequate roll protection is not a good idea. When that roof comes crashing down, you need to be able to get out of the way.
And I'd agree with comments suggesting that harnesses without adequate roll protection is not a good idea. When that roof comes crashing down, you need to be able to get out of the way.
Last edited by joey bagadonuts; 09-04-2013 at 05:16 PM.
02-21-2005, 01:38 PM
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Interesting points byt all. I use the normal 3 pt. belts in my 911 and 924S. However, in my 914 the old belts are so poor, that I only use the 5 pt. belts. The car does have the Targa roll bar that all 914's have from the factory. I suppose that would be a little more help then a normal coupe Porshce. I have seen 914's roll over without a roll bar and they held up very well actually. Best wishes - Jay
02-21-2005, 02:01 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by JCP911S
... with a race seat, I would use the 5-points...
One thing I would like to add however. Porsche did use a racing seat in the "stock" streetcar applications with normal three point belts many times, so this must be OK too. For example, 964 Carrera RS, 993 Carrera RS, 1994 Speedster, GT3. Mostly RoW, but all examples of stock production cars that use a race-type seat and three point belts.
02-21-2005, 02:08 PM
#26
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Tony, et al -
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars. It would seem that the 3-point belt allows you to slump/slide or otherwise not be held tight in a bad position. The harnesses hold you too upright, too well, and the roof squashes you. IN REALITY, THIS IS LARGELY A MYTH!!!
That type of thinking does indeed seem to have merit until you study roll over injury statistics. The most common cause of injury in a roll over - BY FAR - is head trauma caused by the occupant sliding out of a 3-point belt and impacting the door/roof beam or pillar. 3-point belts do nothing to hold a body DOWN. They are primarily designed for frontal impacts.
There was a safety symposium some years ago at the Performance Racing Industry show in Indianapolis where a group of leading safety and medical experts agreed UNANIMOUSLY that you were far safer in the vast majority of circumstances wearing a racing harness -vs- a 3-point belt.
Of course, the photo you showed is a fairly extreme case, and is indeed the farthest I have ever seen a 944 roof collapse. As Rich mentioned, even Isaac points out that any safety item can be dangerous in some random circumstance. No idea or piece of equipment will protect you in EVERY eventuality, but playing the percentages right does make a great difference in your chances.
Another myth exposed!
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars. It would seem that the 3-point belt allows you to slump/slide or otherwise not be held tight in a bad position. The harnesses hold you too upright, too well, and the roof squashes you. IN REALITY, THIS IS LARGELY A MYTH!!!
That type of thinking does indeed seem to have merit until you study roll over injury statistics. The most common cause of injury in a roll over - BY FAR - is head trauma caused by the occupant sliding out of a 3-point belt and impacting the door/roof beam or pillar. 3-point belts do nothing to hold a body DOWN. They are primarily designed for frontal impacts.
There was a safety symposium some years ago at the Performance Racing Industry show in Indianapolis where a group of leading safety and medical experts agreed UNANIMOUSLY that you were far safer in the vast majority of circumstances wearing a racing harness -vs- a 3-point belt.
Of course, the photo you showed is a fairly extreme case, and is indeed the farthest I have ever seen a 944 roof collapse. As Rich mentioned, even Isaac points out that any safety item can be dangerous in some random circumstance. No idea or piece of equipment will protect you in EVERY eventuality, but playing the percentages right does make a great difference in your chances.
Another myth exposed!
02-21-2005, 02:15 PM
#27
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This must be about the 15th time I have posted this. Below is an email from someone who attended the symposium you mention...
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
Regards,
Marc
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in cars without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed 4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where 3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to "duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a 3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can easily exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the lap belt as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant much tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline for all safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
Regards,
Marc
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in cars without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed 4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where 3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to "duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a 3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can easily exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the lap belt as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant much tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline for all safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
02-21-2005, 02:19 PM
#28
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Joey B.,
That second picture of the turbo, seems to show a roll bar with gt3 seats, am I correct. Also, it looks like the roof collapsed only in front of the occupants head area, because of the roll bar ?
Brian. P
Thanks for your post, I was wondering whether a roll cage even with padding is safe, without a helmet, I think from what you are saying it is not, which is what I thought as well.
I am going with Gt3 seats, harness and a DAS roll bar, all at the same time exactly for this reason.
That second picture of the turbo, seems to show a roll bar with gt3 seats, am I correct. Also, it looks like the roof collapsed only in front of the occupants head area, because of the roll bar ?
Brian. P
Thanks for your post, I was wondering whether a roll cage even with padding is safe, without a helmet, I think from what you are saying it is not, which is what I thought as well.
I am going with Gt3 seats, harness and a DAS roll bar, all at the same time exactly for this reason.
02-21-2005, 02:36 PM
#29
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Tony, et al -
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars.
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars.
So, I got some sternum straps. People started harping about the possibilities of neck trauma due to them, so about 6 months after that, I finally got GT-3 seats.
I think I finally have the seat/harness part worked out. Next on the list is to convince myself to install a cage.
02-21-2005, 02:49 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by jeeva
Joey B.,
That second picture of the turbo, seems to show a roll bar with gt3 seats, am I correct. Also, it looks like the roof collapsed only in front of the occupants head area, because of the roll bar ?
That second picture of the turbo, seems to show a roll bar with gt3 seats, am I correct. Also, it looks like the roof collapsed only in front of the occupants head area, because of the roll bar ?