are harnesses street legal?
#31
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Tony, et al -
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars. It would seem that the 3-point belt allows you to slump/slide or otherwise not be held tight in a bad position. The harnesses hold you too upright, too well, and the roof squashes you. IN REALITY, THIS IS LARGELY A MYTH!!!
That type of thinking does indeed seem to have merit until you study roll over injury statistics. The most common cause of injury in a roll over - BY FAR - is head trauma caused by the occupant sliding out of a 3-point belt and impacting the door/roof beam or pillar. 3-point belts do nothing to hold a body DOWN. They are primarily designed for frontal impacts.
There was a safety symposium some years ago at the Performance Racing Industry show in Indianapolis where a group of leading safety and medical experts agreed UNANIMOUSLY that you were far safer in the vast majority of circumstances wearing a racing harness -vs- a 3-point belt.
Of course, the photo you showed is a fairly extreme case, and is indeed the farthest I have ever seen a 944 roof collapse. As Rich mentioned, even Isaac points out that any safety item can be dangerous in some random circumstance. No idea or piece of equipment will protect you in EVERY eventuality, but playing the percentages right does make a great difference in your chances.
Another myth exposed!
You are in the majority who would offer - upon reflection - that wearing a harness in a race seat, without a roll bar, is unsafe. This is a popular position these days, especially amongst instructors who are wondering about getting in strange cars. It would seem that the 3-point belt allows you to slump/slide or otherwise not be held tight in a bad position. The harnesses hold you too upright, too well, and the roof squashes you. IN REALITY, THIS IS LARGELY A MYTH!!!
That type of thinking does indeed seem to have merit until you study roll over injury statistics. The most common cause of injury in a roll over - BY FAR - is head trauma caused by the occupant sliding out of a 3-point belt and impacting the door/roof beam or pillar. 3-point belts do nothing to hold a body DOWN. They are primarily designed for frontal impacts.
There was a safety symposium some years ago at the Performance Racing Industry show in Indianapolis where a group of leading safety and medical experts agreed UNANIMOUSLY that you were far safer in the vast majority of circumstances wearing a racing harness -vs- a 3-point belt.
Of course, the photo you showed is a fairly extreme case, and is indeed the farthest I have ever seen a 944 roof collapse. As Rich mentioned, even Isaac points out that any safety item can be dangerous in some random circumstance. No idea or piece of equipment will protect you in EVERY eventuality, but playing the percentages right does make a great difference in your chances.
Another myth exposed!
Am I correct in saying that you have only shown that a 5/6/7-point system with or without a roll bar is safer than a 3-point system. But, it still holds true, that a 5/6/7-point harness with a roll bar is better than without.
Last edited by Sanjeevan; 02-21-2005 at 05:26 PM.
#32
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Originally Posted by jeeva
Am I correct in saying that you have only shown that a 5/6/7-point system with or without a roll bar is safer than a 3-point system. But, it still holds true, that a 5/6/7-point harness with a roll bar is better than without.
You really can't have it all with a street car.
#33
jeeva... factor in the possibiliy of head trauma with an unhelmeted driver, and the answer to your second point is no. The rollbar/cage becomes a source of additional injury on the street... better off without it.
Based on several threads on these subjects over the last year or so, a rough concensus seems to be... stock seats, stock belts.... race seats, race harnesses.
Generally speaking a race seat is built up around the hip area and does not let the 3-point lay properly... in my car is is a good 3 inches from my body for example... not good
Generally speaking the stock seat does not hold you in proper position for harness... shoulder belts are not properly located and you can submarine under the lap belts.
There are dissenting opinions here, but in my read this appears to be the gravity point for opinion
Based on several threads on these subjects over the last year or so, a rough concensus seems to be... stock seats, stock belts.... race seats, race harnesses.
Generally speaking a race seat is built up around the hip area and does not let the 3-point lay properly... in my car is is a good 3 inches from my body for example... not good
Generally speaking the stock seat does not hold you in proper position for harness... shoulder belts are not properly located and you can submarine under the lap belts.
There are dissenting opinions here, but in my read this appears to be the gravity point for opinion
#34
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
It isn't that simple nor straighforward. Assuming we are talking about a street car, then there may be significant risks associated with the rollbar and no helmet. Rollbar might save your life in a rollover and it might turn an otherwise minor accident into a fatality if your head hits the bar.
You really can't have it all with a street car.
You really can't have it all with a street car.
You guy's are much more experienced than me, so to be clear with this...are you saying in a street car, the standard seats and belts are better for most street accidents, than the gt3/harness/roll bar combo. (not cage).
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Originally Posted by jeeva
With the gt3 seats, a harness and a roll bar, how can the seat flex that far back and up to expose the rear of ones head to hit the roll bar, I can easily see how it can impact a roll cage, or even a stock seat and a roll bar. But, with a gt3 seat with it's high head rest, it doesnt look like it's possible.
You guy's are much more experienced than me, so to be clear with this...are you saying in a street car, the standard seats and belts are better for most street accidents, than the gt3/harness/roll bar combo. (not cage).
You guy's are much more experienced than me, so to be clear with this...are you saying in a street car, the standard seats and belts are better for most street accidents, than the gt3/harness/roll bar combo. (not cage).
#36
Pro
I would concur on that, especially if we are talking about a late model car with active air bags, side air bags seat belt pretensioners etc. All of these components are engineered to work together whereas adding a 5 point harness is not engineered or designed as part of the system. It might be better, it might not be better who knows since it has not been tested. That said a full cage, 5 point harness AND a helmeted head is going to be superior but would not be very good on the street for a variety of reasons.
For me, I use the 3 point belt on the street mainly because it is easier to use and provides more freedom of movement which affords somewhat better vision when trying to back up or check behind me. I will take my chances with having a cage for the few miles that are driven on the street.
For me, I use the 3 point belt on the street mainly because it is easier to use and provides more freedom of movement which affords somewhat better vision when trying to back up or check behind me. I will take my chances with having a cage for the few miles that are driven on the street.
#37
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Actually...
It is very difficult to say whether the blue car has a roll bar simply by looking at the damage. What IS clear to me is that the red car sustained a much more violent impact.
This type of accident involves the wheels catching - usualy in soft dirt or sand - and flipping the car into the air. The first point of impact - in this case the left rear of the roof - will take a mighty hit, and this is generally the only time you will see a rear (B & C-pillar) roof area severely damaged. The blue car appears to haver done a soft roll over the left front pillar, quite common when a car goes over a bank and softly rolls over the 3/4 front.
- 20 years in collision, appraisal, and accident reconstruction.
It is very difficult to say whether the blue car has a roll bar simply by looking at the damage. What IS clear to me is that the red car sustained a much more violent impact.
This type of accident involves the wheels catching - usualy in soft dirt or sand - and flipping the car into the air. The first point of impact - in this case the left rear of the roof - will take a mighty hit, and this is generally the only time you will see a rear (B & C-pillar) roof area severely damaged. The blue car appears to haver done a soft roll over the left front pillar, quite common when a car goes over a bank and softly rolls over the 3/4 front.
- 20 years in collision, appraisal, and accident reconstruction.
#38
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Hey Jeeva;
There could be instances where having ANY roll bar in a street car would cause serious or fatal injury. It's just hard to configure something like that and have it be 100% safe when you have no helmet on to help. At least realize that the potential exists. Likelihood is another matter.
You must consider many angles here. Generally, A Porsche seat will withstand some pretty nasty impacts and not fail. Although I have some real reservations about how the seats are bolted in a 996 chassis, generally they are very stout.
As RJay mentions, there are all kinds of wild contortions that a body and interior equipment go through in a crash. I'll make some points to clarify.
- How tall are you?
- How strong is the seat and it's mounting?
Taller drivers will have the seat back closer to a roll bar. Proximity breeds potential danger in street use. You want to be close to a belt bar for short belt lengths and to restrict seat motion, but only on the track, not with an un-helmeted street driver head.
If the seat flexes or comes adrift in any signficant way, your head will be searching for that tubing for sure. In a rear hit, or as RJay suggests, even in a violent front impact, you could find the thing with your noggin. That is not good, of course, and all this illustrates again how tricky the balance is in a dual use car.
My point of view is that if you have a roll bar in a street car, I hope you are short and have a stout seat. If you drive on the street, it is probably safer to wear your harness. Racing belts will keep you in proper seated position far better under more extreme circumstances than any 3-point. Your thoughts may vary.
There could be instances where having ANY roll bar in a street car would cause serious or fatal injury. It's just hard to configure something like that and have it be 100% safe when you have no helmet on to help. At least realize that the potential exists. Likelihood is another matter.
You must consider many angles here. Generally, A Porsche seat will withstand some pretty nasty impacts and not fail. Although I have some real reservations about how the seats are bolted in a 996 chassis, generally they are very stout.
As RJay mentions, there are all kinds of wild contortions that a body and interior equipment go through in a crash. I'll make some points to clarify.
- How tall are you?
- How strong is the seat and it's mounting?
Taller drivers will have the seat back closer to a roll bar. Proximity breeds potential danger in street use. You want to be close to a belt bar for short belt lengths and to restrict seat motion, but only on the track, not with an un-helmeted street driver head.
If the seat flexes or comes adrift in any signficant way, your head will be searching for that tubing for sure. In a rear hit, or as RJay suggests, even in a violent front impact, you could find the thing with your noggin. That is not good, of course, and all this illustrates again how tricky the balance is in a dual use car.
My point of view is that if you have a roll bar in a street car, I hope you are short and have a stout seat. If you drive on the street, it is probably safer to wear your harness. Racing belts will keep you in proper seated position far better under more extreme circumstances than any 3-point. Your thoughts may vary.
#39
RL Technical Advisor
Hi:
I'd really concurr with most of John H.'s input here,.......thats VERY sound advice.
As Mark (Sunday Driver) said, you can't have it all when it comes to street cars and everything one does in this regime becomes a compromise.
As a long-time Schroth distributor, we do a LOT of belt installs and I don't recommend rollbars in street-driven cars with OEM-type seats unless a helmet is used (which of course is silly for street use). This is a textbook illustration of one type of safety compromise for track usage.
About seat belts: DOT-approved belts require a pushbutton release and bolt-in anchor points. This means that the Schroth Profi-II ASM competition harnesses or the Street Harnessbelts (4-pt ASM) are the only products in the Schroth lineup that are technically legal for use in road cars. One might check with your insurance company about this if you are thinking about removing the OEM belts for something better. If the DOT-approved belts were not in use during an accident, they might have something to say about it.
Lastly,...installation is EVERYTHING as some have learned from the Dale Earnhardt Sr. accident and I have seen a lot of poorly installed belts over the past 30 years. Some have been outright dangerous. Schroth has very specific installation instructions about anchor points and belt angles and anyone selling these things ought to be able to help.
Seat choice is critical when using any kind of non-OEM harnesses and Schroth is VERY specific about what seats cannot be used with their products. Safety & security cost money and there are no shortcuts here.
My very best advice would be to leave the stock harnesses and seating alone (if the seats have integral headrests) unless you are able to properly install aftermarket seating (slotted or separate headrests) and harnesses together as a package.
Just one person's opinion after 30 years of building Porsche race cars,.... YMMV
I'd really concurr with most of John H.'s input here,.......thats VERY sound advice.
As Mark (Sunday Driver) said, you can't have it all when it comes to street cars and everything one does in this regime becomes a compromise.
As a long-time Schroth distributor, we do a LOT of belt installs and I don't recommend rollbars in street-driven cars with OEM-type seats unless a helmet is used (which of course is silly for street use). This is a textbook illustration of one type of safety compromise for track usage.
About seat belts: DOT-approved belts require a pushbutton release and bolt-in anchor points. This means that the Schroth Profi-II ASM competition harnesses or the Street Harnessbelts (4-pt ASM) are the only products in the Schroth lineup that are technically legal for use in road cars. One might check with your insurance company about this if you are thinking about removing the OEM belts for something better. If the DOT-approved belts were not in use during an accident, they might have something to say about it.
Lastly,...installation is EVERYTHING as some have learned from the Dale Earnhardt Sr. accident and I have seen a lot of poorly installed belts over the past 30 years. Some have been outright dangerous. Schroth has very specific installation instructions about anchor points and belt angles and anyone selling these things ought to be able to help.
Seat choice is critical when using any kind of non-OEM harnesses and Schroth is VERY specific about what seats cannot be used with their products. Safety & security cost money and there are no shortcuts here.
My very best advice would be to leave the stock harnesses and seating alone (if the seats have integral headrests) unless you are able to properly install aftermarket seating (slotted or separate headrests) and harnesses together as a package.
Just one person's opinion after 30 years of building Porsche race cars,.... YMMV
#40
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Thanks for all the help guys. I knew that doing these mods. piece meal is not a good idea, that's why I decided to fork out the big bucks to go with the gt3 seats, 6-point teamtech harness and a DAS roll bar, all at the same time. I felt the 3-point/stock seat to be totally inadequate for tracking, I guess now my setup is not perfect for street use (i.e, without a helmet). But, it is still better than using the stock seats with the roll bar and I still think it is the right balance for me...safer at the track where I feel I need the extra help, and may be a notch less safe on the street.