sjanes

I think that is an exercise best left for a wet skid pad.

DanS911

Absolutely not!
I agree with sjanes skid pad or autocross. It is however NOT necessary to spin a car to learn its limits. Some of the best drivers I know will tell you they have never spun a car on the track.

RJay

AX without a doubt. Thats why I believe every novice should do some AX so they can push it past the limit with no harm done. Gotta say though, I 've yet to meet anyone whose truly fast on the track that hasn't spun at least once (and the two really good club racers I know have done far worse than that!).

We just ran an evening with Brock Yates last week. During the course of hs talk, someone asked him about he death of Earnhardt and did he think that Earnhardt should have been wearing a Hans. He replied that Racing is dangerous sport. He knew the risks, made a choice for comfort over safety. You can die. He did. DE isn't racing, and the risks are lowered, but they are still there. Anyone that does this seriously knows this. To me instructors are like test pilots, they deserve a tremdous amount of respect for what they do for us all. Its not like there getting out there in cars with dual controls. My hats off to them all. I suspect that someday I will have enough experience and skill to join their ranks. But I wonder whether I'll ever have the guts. Haven't said it lately, but thanks to all you guys.

mitch236

Just remember a spin is going into the wall without hitting anything. It is a learning experience but what you learn is that you don't want to spin again. Not how to drive. The best drivers don't spin because they pushed the limit too hard, they spin because of outside forces they can't control. Like being hit, or hitting fluid. Usually you realize you are out of shape before control it lost. That is the difference between OK drivers and good drivers. The spins I have had all came when I was first signed off solo. Luckily, I didn't hit anything.

Brian P

Exactly. The phrase I've heard is that the difference between a spin and a crash is just dumb luck. If you need to spin to learn how to drive, do it at an autocross. Doing it at the track will become a VERY expensive habit.

JCP911S

The best way to "teach" the limit IMHO is to gradually work up to it over a series of events. This is why the Green/Blue/White scheme works will for PCA program.

In a perfect world the student would be at 70% on every turn, then 75%, then 80%... on up to 95%. As their skill and awareness increases, they can get closer to the limit safely.

In the real world, they are 75% on one turn and 90% on another... as they push a bit, they hit 101% before they are ready for it.... and whoosh. I agree that the only instructional value of a spin is to teach them that they never want to do it again....

However, as instructors, we should be very aware of how consistently the student is driving, and try to keep them at a steady level. Usually you can feel when a student is in a steady comfortable rhythm, and when they are pushing in a given turn, and reel them in a bit there.

SundayDriver

I see it differently...
Of course there are times when the best drivers simply crash, but there is a big range where the more experienced driver will either avoid loss of control or take the spin rather than risk the crash.

Most spins and crashes are the result of MULTIPLE errors. For example, I turn in early, then apex early then run out of track, and then pinch the wheel to stay on track resulting in a spin and possible crash. That is just what the novice driver is likely to do.

The most experienced driver will recognize the first mistake (early turn in) and slow the turn rate or slow the car a bit. Result is less than the fasted time through the corner but they olny loose a tiny bit of time.

If they miss that, the other big difference is knowing when to give it up. The novice driver continues to try to control the car when the experienced driver recognizes it is not recoverable. The expeienced driver, at that point, gets to make a decision about where to go off. It is usually better to spin early in the corner as you still have a lot of pavement to work with.

SundayDriver

I agree that this is a significant lesson for DE drivers. However, I think the biggest practical lesson (to support the idea that they don't want to spin at a DE) is that you can drive off and still maintain control. Most beginner DE spins are simply caused by pinching the wheel when the drop 2 or 4 wheels off track. That first spin, hopefully teaches them that they should have kept the wheel straight and simply continued to drive.

mitch236

I see it differently as well. Most good drivers think that a spin IS loss of control. Better to keep it straight. I don't see how spinning can avoid the crash if crashing is immenent. Maybe I didn't understand your post?

SundayDriver

Let me give you some examples of cases where I had a choice. I entered a corner too fast at Pahrump and the tail started to come around. This was right after turn in and well before apex. I had two choices - 1) Go both feet in and foce the spin or 2) more countersteer and get the car to the apex. IMO, the car was not recoverable so I went both in and spun the car early in the corner. Result is that I pretty much stayed on track - rear tires barely went into the gravel. Had I hung on I am certain that I would have lost control just past the apex when the car was fully loaded to the side. The result, IMO, would have been a spin going way off track.

Here is another where the choice was drive off or spin. Coming over Magic Mountain at Buttonwillow (CW) I was too hot as I crested the hill. Now the conventional wisdom would be to release steering pressure and drive off - maintaining decent control. However, on the first laps, I did track recon (as everyone should do). The area outside that turn was somewhat muddy and I have seen quite a few cars get torn up there or even roll when it is wet. I forced the car to the apex, knowing I was never going to make the corner. It spun at the apex and I made a big cloud of dust in a dry part of the corner.

On more than on occasion entering T11 at Mid Ohio, I was too hot. I gave it up early and spun the car - pretty much staying on the pavement - rather than taking the spin after the crest of the hill where all the close walls are (or at least used to be).

JCP911S

I think Sunday summed it up... experienced drivers see a problem early and can take corrective action. Generally, I know about halfway into the brake zone whether I'm going to nail the turn or not.

I would guess in a race situation there are 4-5 times a lap where a possible spin could occur, but the driver adjusts and holds the car on line. Over 20 laps thats almost 100 potenitial incidents averted. The probabilities will catch up with you eventially.

Oil, debris, weather, mechanical failures, stupidity by other drivers all can contribute that are not directly atributable to the driver. Add in red mist and brain fade (which are) and the deck is stacked against you.

Bottom line, if you don't spin once in a while, you aren't trying hard enough. Unfortunately

sjanes

In racing where the goal is to go as fast as you can, I think this could be a valid statment. For DE, the student should not be trying that hard. I've "spun" 4 times since I've started DE.

Twice in the rain in my second year because I was driving too fast for the conditions and did a lazy spin, staying on the track.

My third spin was turning into "Le Diable" at Tremblant a bit too early while going flat out and not having enough room to straighen up the car for the hard braking zone before the Esses. I didn't even try for the corner, but instead lined up with the gravel trap and drove in at over 60mph. It stopped the car dead and sent a shower of rocks onto my windshield.

My last spin was exiting 5b at Mosport in 2003. I used to do this very quick 3-2 double clutch downshift (my 2nd gear synchro is getting worn) while rotating the car for a launch (this is a 3.2L, so "launch" is relative) up the back straight. Well, I blew the shift, didn't get the car in gear and the back just kept coming around. Two feet in, and a quick spin left me 2 ft from the wall.

What have I learned by spinning?. Each one was worse than the last and if I keep up "trying hard", I'm going to crash. After the Mosport spin, I concentrate on driving techniques (brake release, vision, etc) instead of just trying to go faster. I also, when I sign off a student, I tell them to stay withing 70-75% of their ability so they have some left over to make up for the mistakes.

mitch236

While this may be true for the experienced racer, for the student this is bad advice. Remember, a spin that is not the result of unavoidable outside influences is a result of running out of talent, plain and simple.

JCP911S

Yes, I was definately referring to racing situations, and the statement about "good" drivers spinning or not spinning. I was not recommending pushing in DE until you have an accident.

DE or not, a car going 100 MPH is a potential disaster and the walls are just as hard in DE as they are in a race.

I generally drive at a totally different level in DE, and I do not encourage my students to push the car to the limit. I stress consistency and believe that a driver that can consistently drive the car at 90.0% lap after lap turn after turn is a much better driver than one who goes out with his hair on fire and flogs the snot out of the car.

Occasionally I confess to using DE to practice certain turns that I am weak on, or set brake points, and occasionally that results in an incident. I would argue that I do this consciously with full knowledge that I am pushing the risk curve up a bit and am fully cogniscent of the possible outcomes.

I would also argue that spinning or going offtrack sets a rather bad example and makes be look like a total ********.

sjanes

yeah, it's kinda hard to earn the trust of your student when you can't keep your own car on the track