Instructors, why do you do it?
02-15-2005, 03:02 PM
#32
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My reasons are pretty much the same as everybody elses.
I've had a lot of fun with cars, and I did want to put something back in. I've enjoyed doing DEs, but I knew that the day would come when I got tired of driving around in circles, and instructing was one of the ways to keep it interesting. Many people go racing instead or as well, but I didn't want to do that. I've had my racing career, and I enjoyed it, but I don't want to go back and do it again. I like DE instructing because it isn't competitive. It's perhaps a taste of competition, but not the full meal.
I haven't been scared or sick yet nor worried much about safety equipment. It all seems at least as safe as the equipment we had when I did forest stage rallying in the seventies. Probably though I've been relatively lucky about the car and driver combinations I've instructed. I'll say though that the speeds we reach don't do anything for me, and I don't believe they teach much about high performance driving to the beginning Green Student. However that's largely dictated by the tracks we use.
At the risk of hijacking the thread, I will say that of all the satisfying "light comes on in the students head" moments, the best ones are when you get that reaction from a female student who is only there because her SO made her do it. Our local regions in Texas do empahasize that we make it fun for the student, but it's just different to make it fun for the female student.
For example, my male first time Greens get told to mash their ABS brake pedal down through the floorboards if I can find them clear track and it's dry. They get that sometime on the second day, because if everything is going well, that's when we are exiting turns under a lot of power, and I need them to know how well the car can stop before I'm going to let them keep that power on up the straight, and then require real braking for the next turn.
I've learnt that the female students usually need this demo by the afternoon on the first day, long before we get into the higher speeds. What we are doing at this point is to understand that we accelerate through and out of turns, and that power stabilizes the car. They aren't being asked to apply a lot of throttle at all, and I know (and they don't yet) that we're well within the capabilities of the car, but they do know that when they press on the gas pedal the car goes faster, and they're worried about going fast. They almost always have no concept at all of how quickly a Porsche can lose speed, and confidence improves greatly after this. Occasionally it improves too much.
If others have more helpful hints like this (and I'm sure you guys do) then lets start another thread on it.
Michael Paton
I've had a lot of fun with cars, and I did want to put something back in. I've enjoyed doing DEs, but I knew that the day would come when I got tired of driving around in circles, and instructing was one of the ways to keep it interesting. Many people go racing instead or as well, but I didn't want to do that. I've had my racing career, and I enjoyed it, but I don't want to go back and do it again. I like DE instructing because it isn't competitive. It's perhaps a taste of competition, but not the full meal.
I haven't been scared or sick yet nor worried much about safety equipment. It all seems at least as safe as the equipment we had when I did forest stage rallying in the seventies. Probably though I've been relatively lucky about the car and driver combinations I've instructed. I'll say though that the speeds we reach don't do anything for me, and I don't believe they teach much about high performance driving to the beginning Green Student. However that's largely dictated by the tracks we use.
Originally Posted by sjanes
When it was our turn to go out on the track, I got her to just drive around in the center of the track to show there is no boggie man out here, and that it's really just a oneway road that goes nowhere. After a few laps, when she is comfortable driving around, I started to bring her closer to being on line, and start introducing basic concepts. The first time she hit the double apex, she said "wow, this is soo cool". By the end of the run, she was laughing and doing the double and late apex on her own.
Seeing her "get it" and have more fun than she thought she would made me realize that this instructing thing is for me.
Seeing her "get it" and have more fun than she thought she would made me realize that this instructing thing is for me.
For example, my male first time Greens get told to mash their ABS brake pedal down through the floorboards if I can find them clear track and it's dry. They get that sometime on the second day, because if everything is going well, that's when we are exiting turns under a lot of power, and I need them to know how well the car can stop before I'm going to let them keep that power on up the straight, and then require real braking for the next turn.
I've learnt that the female students usually need this demo by the afternoon on the first day, long before we get into the higher speeds. What we are doing at this point is to understand that we accelerate through and out of turns, and that power stabilizes the car. They aren't being asked to apply a lot of throttle at all, and I know (and they don't yet) that we're well within the capabilities of the car, but they do know that when they press on the gas pedal the car goes faster, and they're worried about going fast. They almost always have no concept at all of how quickly a Porsche can lose speed, and confidence improves greatly after this. Occasionally it improves too much.
If others have more helpful hints like this (and I'm sure you guys do) then lets start another thread on it.
Michael Paton
02-15-2005, 04:13 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, thanks for all the input. Very interesting.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
02-15-2005, 05:28 PM
#34
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Guys, thanks for all the input. Very interesting.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
However, I don't think I'd be more worried about the 140MPH car than the 100MPH car. Both are going to brake for a turn and both drivers will probably try to go through the turns at comparable speeds. Ok, maybe the 600 HP driver has to be more gentle on the throttle coming out of a turn than the 150HP guy, but other than that, why should a fast car concern me more?
02-15-2005, 05:46 PM
#35
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As instructors, what do you guys think about stiffening up the safety requirements? Most DEs require no modifications for safety equipment.
I would be a bit leery about hopping into a 20 year old 951 that is bone stock for safety but might have a chip and running 18psi of boost.
When I purchased my car, part of my criteria was to have a car that is prepped for DE with a rollbar seats and harnesses. That stuff isn't cheap, but it is worth it. I know that I could go even further but I think that is a good compromise for DE.
Max
I would be a bit leery about hopping into a 20 year old 951 that is bone stock for safety but might have a chip and running 18psi of boost.
When I purchased my car, part of my criteria was to have a car that is prepped for DE with a rollbar seats and harnesses. That stuff isn't cheap, but it is worth it. I know that I could go even further but I think that is a good compromise for DE.
Max
02-15-2005, 06:13 PM
#36
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redline . . . I suppose you are going to tell me that I assigned that student to you.
Most people who instruct truly enjoy it for a variety of reasons . . . the student comments are truly enjoyable to read.
I do have a story on what was probably my best and worst student combined . . . It all happened at Bridgehampton. I had only been instructing for about a year. The track chair at the time received a call warning him about a very aggressive driver coming to the track . . . not sure how I got selected to instruct but I did. So the student arrives late . . . open 944 full race car on a trailer with a crew. Driver and crew spoke Italian as there language of choice. So I introduce myself and do an initial interview - Driver drove professional rallye in Italy - We get in the car and I drive the mandatory two laps at about 60% showing the line, flag stations etc. It was very hard to hear even with intercoms. Driver gets in driver seat . . . we are in third gear before we exit the pits, flying by the time we get to turn three . . .he nails the brakes, rotates the car and off we go flying into turn 5 . . . does the nail and rotate routine all over again. I'm in the right seat screaming "Brake" . . . "Gas" . . . . "get me the . . . out of this car" . . . . "In the pits" - well the in the pits thing worked pretty well. We're at Bridgehampton so I have to use all my skills to convince this gentleman that he needs to know where he is going because there is no forgiveness at this track. I tell him that he is going to listen to me and slow down . . . until he convinces me that he knows where he is going. So back out we go . . . . okay through turn 3 . . . turn 5 . . by the time we get to the lightbulb he is back at full tilt. I'm back to screaming and he is yelling back at me in somewhat sketchy English " So much car . . . so much car . . . i've got to go, go, go" So back in the bits we go . . . We did that several times and each time the crew ran over to the car and everyone is yelling stuff in Italian . . . I have no idea what they are talking about . . . no one can hear anything because the car is so loud. Just as an aside, I had two students at this event . . . the other student was a mild-mannered dentist who was driving well within his limits . . . at one point their runs were back to back and as I walked up to the dentist's car feeling (and looking) like I was on sea legs, the dentist offered to sit his run out so I could regain my strength. We didn't sit out any runs but it was like getting out of a rocket ship and onto the saddle on a tortoise . . . there could not have been two more different drivers. . . .
Back to the Italian . . . we go through this rolling into the pits and calming down several times but he finally starts to listen to me . . . by the fourth run of the day I am satisfied that he knows where he is going and that as a driver he possesses incredible skills. During the fourth run the car starts to overheat . . . we are well passed the point where any reasonable person would have pitted but he nails the brakes and does close to a U-turn in the middle of the track to get into pit lane. Problem with the car ended the event for my friend . . . his crew could not fix the problem at the track. He went on to PCA racing - and he did very well in that venue.
As a new instructor, I admit that I was pretty frightened until it became obvious that he had excellent car control skills and a real "feel" for driving and that we were not making it through the corners on dumb luck alone. I'm hopeful that he learned something from me . . . I certainly learned a lot from him! While I never had the privilege of instructing him again, I did instruct his friend at his request.
Most people who instruct truly enjoy it for a variety of reasons . . . the student comments are truly enjoyable to read.
I do have a story on what was probably my best and worst student combined . . . It all happened at Bridgehampton. I had only been instructing for about a year. The track chair at the time received a call warning him about a very aggressive driver coming to the track . . . not sure how I got selected to instruct but I did. So the student arrives late . . . open 944 full race car on a trailer with a crew. Driver and crew spoke Italian as there language of choice. So I introduce myself and do an initial interview - Driver drove professional rallye in Italy - We get in the car and I drive the mandatory two laps at about 60% showing the line, flag stations etc. It was very hard to hear even with intercoms. Driver gets in driver seat . . . we are in third gear before we exit the pits, flying by the time we get to turn three . . .he nails the brakes, rotates the car and off we go flying into turn 5 . . . does the nail and rotate routine all over again. I'm in the right seat screaming "Brake" . . . "Gas" . . . . "get me the . . . out of this car" . . . . "In the pits" - well the in the pits thing worked pretty well. We're at Bridgehampton so I have to use all my skills to convince this gentleman that he needs to know where he is going because there is no forgiveness at this track. I tell him that he is going to listen to me and slow down . . . until he convinces me that he knows where he is going. So back out we go . . . . okay through turn 3 . . . turn 5 . . by the time we get to the lightbulb he is back at full tilt. I'm back to screaming and he is yelling back at me in somewhat sketchy English " So much car . . . so much car . . . i've got to go, go, go" So back in the bits we go . . . We did that several times and each time the crew ran over to the car and everyone is yelling stuff in Italian . . . I have no idea what they are talking about . . . no one can hear anything because the car is so loud. Just as an aside, I had two students at this event . . . the other student was a mild-mannered dentist who was driving well within his limits . . . at one point their runs were back to back and as I walked up to the dentist's car feeling (and looking) like I was on sea legs, the dentist offered to sit his run out so I could regain my strength. We didn't sit out any runs but it was like getting out of a rocket ship and onto the saddle on a tortoise . . . there could not have been two more different drivers. . . .
Back to the Italian . . . we go through this rolling into the pits and calming down several times but he finally starts to listen to me . . . by the fourth run of the day I am satisfied that he knows where he is going and that as a driver he possesses incredible skills. During the fourth run the car starts to overheat . . . we are well passed the point where any reasonable person would have pitted but he nails the brakes and does close to a U-turn in the middle of the track to get into pit lane. Problem with the car ended the event for my friend . . . his crew could not fix the problem at the track. He went on to PCA racing - and he did very well in that venue.
As a new instructor, I admit that I was pretty frightened until it became obvious that he had excellent car control skills and a real "feel" for driving and that we were not making it through the corners on dumb luck alone. I'm hopeful that he learned something from me . . . I certainly learned a lot from him! While I never had the privilege of instructing him again, I did instruct his friend at his request.
02-15-2005, 07:10 PM
#37
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Al P.
Arlene's going to kick his butt
Originally Posted by tntporsche
Redline . . . I suppose you are going to tell me that I assigned that student to you.
Come to think of it, she's the 2nd female student I've had cry...
02-15-2005, 09:43 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
[QUOTE=ColorChange]Guys, thanks for all the input. Very interesting.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it.
Tim, you've seen Greg drive, that boy is just not right.
Ask him about his viper day instruction
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it.
Tim, you've seen Greg drive, that boy is just not right.
Ask him about his viper day instruction
02-15-2005, 10:16 PM
#40
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Guys, thanks for all the input. Very interesting.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
One of the reasons I ask is because to be quite honest, Fishman hopped in my car and if I were him, I wouldn't do it. This is a 600 hp car with a new driver at a new track. Now, is it a pretty safe track and a new, properly equipped car ... yes, but I still don't want to be going 140 mph with a moderately skilled driver. While I appreciate his efforts and assistance, I just wouldn't do it.
With beginner students, the straights are good places to talk to the student about the next few corners, or whatever needs to be discussed (inspire confidence, ego check, etc). You don't want them going 60mph down the straights, but 140+ isn't necessary this early in the game either.
Just my $.03 Cdn ($.02 US)
02-16-2005, 11:39 AM
#41
Old trick with Green students... tell them to leave the car in 3rd gear, or whatever. This pretty much limits the 140MPH stuff until you get them squared away.
BTW, I will always take a "first timer" any time any where.... they are usually the most attentive and conscientious students. Plus, you can't help but teach them something.
BTW, I will always take a "first timer" any time any where.... they are usually the most attentive and conscientious students. Plus, you can't help but teach them something.
02-16-2005, 12:25 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sjanes
Personally, the amount of HP the car has is irrelevent since I would restrain a green student from going 140mph until I know that they can think as fast as the car is going. If the car is going faster than the student can process what is going on around him/her, then they are just trying to keep the car on the track instead of being able to think about what they are doing and learn from it. That's also why I prefer green students to brake earlier and softer (instead of hammering the crap out of the brakes) so they can process the turn coming at them and learn. Otherwise, I'm just ballast.
With beginner students, the straights are good places to talk to the student about the next few corners, or whatever needs to be discussed (inspire confidence, ego check, etc). You don't want them going 60mph down the straights, but 140+ isn't necessary this early in the game either.
Just my $.03 Cdn ($.02 US)
With beginner students, the straights are good places to talk to the student about the next few corners, or whatever needs to be discussed (inspire confidence, ego check, etc). You don't want them going 60mph down the straights, but 140+ isn't necessary this early in the game either.
Just my $.03 Cdn ($.02 US)
02-16-2005, 01:09 PM
#43
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
In the begining, it was great teaching any kind of student, especially the green drivers with talent. The whole mystery of driving on the track would unfold that very weekend. We would start out with pointing out the turn-in, apex, and trackout points, and finish the weekend with proper steering input, braking techniques and really putting down the power on turn exit! I loved their enthusiasm; another rookie hooked for life!
After 20 years though, I am finding that I prefer to work with more advanced drivers and help them find that little bit of extra speed. If they have control of the car, and are not driving over their heads, then the extra speed does not bother me. Sometimes it's more of a discussion process in the car, where I get them to try different things and we both learn from it.
After 20 years though, I am finding that I prefer to work with more advanced drivers and help them find that little bit of extra speed. If they have control of the car, and are not driving over their heads, then the extra speed does not bother me. Sometimes it's more of a discussion process in the car, where I get them to try different things and we both learn from it.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-16-2005, 01:29 PM
#44
Technical Specialist
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Old trick with Green students... tell them to leave the car in 3rd gear, or whatever. This pretty much limits the 140MPH stuff until you get them squared away.
02-16-2005, 03:34 PM
#45
Race Car
Originally Posted by M758
Why....
1) Joy of teaching - I love it it when get the right feeling in the car. That is the one where the students car flows around the track from one corner to the next just like mine would. I know that I helped him get there he can feel it too. I am happy since he go it right and he/she is very happy that they understand what is going on. Have a student learn something is really great to see.
2) I learn something too. Being able to explain and teach someone something requre you yourself to know it well enough to explain it. So in teaching I learn more about how to drive myself.
3) Helping out the club. I always instruct for the PCA when I can. It is the local club and we always seem to need instructors so I am glad to help out.
4) Hey I am never one to turn down a reduced/freebies.
I like teaching raw novices as well as 944-spec racers who are looking for more speed. It is fun to give the ability to do something they did not thing possible.
1) Joy of teaching - I love it it when get the right feeling in the car. That is the one where the students car flows around the track from one corner to the next just like mine would. I know that I helped him get there he can feel it too. I am happy since he go it right and he/she is very happy that they understand what is going on. Have a student learn something is really great to see.
2) I learn something too. Being able to explain and teach someone something requre you yourself to know it well enough to explain it. So in teaching I learn more about how to drive myself.
3) Helping out the club. I always instruct for the PCA when I can. It is the local club and we always seem to need instructors so I am glad to help out.
4) Hey I am never one to turn down a reduced/freebies.
I like teaching raw novices as well as 944-spec racers who are looking for more speed. It is fun to give the ability to do something they did not thing possible.
Can't wait to learn about driving this car.
See you there! I am sure that I will be the only 993 Targa there. Hope someone proves me wrong.