JCP911S

Need for reference points varies with the turn... most turns on most tracks are primarily visuals based on lots and lots of experience, and how the car "feels"... some turns I just can't get a "feel" for, so I will use references to help... also on very hard braking zones, a brake point is helpful to build consistency.

However, I almost always have an apex point for every turn... as I enter a turn, I usually look through it, keeping the apex point in my field of vision.... in my mind, when entering a turn, everything starts with the apex and sequences backward from there

this both helps me aim the car, but more importantly, acts as a gauge to "measure" when to get on the throttle. If I see I am on the money, I can nail the trottle earlier.... if I'm a bit wide or early, I know I have to feather the trottle a bit so as not to carry too much exit speed.

Obviously, in a wheel to wheel racing situation, you're line is dependant on where the other cars are... it is much more seat of the pants.

John H

Ask me about slop in the line at turn one at Mid-Ohio.

brucegre

Ouch John, what a sport eh? So far I've been lucky, my sloppy moments have cost me tires and embarrasment but no sheet metal.

T2 and T4 at mosport are great examples to use for vision techniques - both blind entry, big downhill left so I have to use a mental picture of the track to turn in. Stacey was talking about using an external reference, but I never learned it that way, so as I get to the turn in, I have a mental picture of what I better see as I come over the top (the entry to T3 or T5 and all the road leading there). It would seem obvious that I'm using something as a reference, but it has to be a "scene" rather than a point since I couldn't point to anything specific. I do pick up the first apex in T2 as I come over the top, before getting my eyes back to T3, but really peripherally.

So far, I've been pushed to the outside at racing speed in both T2 and T4, but the focus on the next corner allowed me to keep the car on the track, messy, but on track. Actually, the car wasn't messy, just my shorts

I've never driven Laguna Seca, but I'd love to hear from you folks who do, what are the methods for the corkscrew? Mental picture, point - point, close eyes and pray ...

Oh yeah - that's T3 at Mosport in my avatar, which is my least favourite corner. I don't use vision in that corner, I'm too busy trying to stay awake waiting for the damn corner to end (kidding). Sometmes patience is part driving too. Figures that's where the photog camps out.

Mike S.

I'm just a rookie to DE's, but I thought I'd offer my 2 cents from a beginners (5 DE's all at Watkins Glen) perspective. I'm happy to see cones out there! But, I can see and foresee their value as diminishing with time. Recognizing and "feeling" what the car is doing, starting to develop a 6th sense of my speed, and improving my awareness and vision are sometimes replacing the "brake here, now turn here, now apex here, now track out here" piecewise sequence.

Initially (1st 3 DE's), all the cones really helped me learn the line. With more repetition, I'd say I got this down pretty good and the cones were crucial to me being able to do this.

At the last couple DE's, I find my most important hard cues are the apex cone, braking point markers, and the concete repair paths. I still love that apex cone on what are many blind corners at the Glen. Establishing braking points is helping me learn how to erase the fact that I'm braking too soon. The turn in cone isn't playing a big role. Probably because I'm not coming in too hot (i.e. still braking too soon), have obeyed the "brake in a straight line" rule, and don't turn in too early so I don't early too apex. The track out cone is changing from a "drive to that spot" marker to an indicator of how soon or how hard to get on the gas coming through the apex to smoothly wind up at that spot. Again, I'm always on the safe/slow side so this certainly helps explain what's happening for me.

But what I've noticed is my ocular vision and field of view is very noticably expanding and the cones are just part of a bigger picture. And despite getting a little faster out there, time feels like it is slowing down. Professor Helmut Tester wrote what my noggin' was saying to me for some time, that all you experienced and expert drivers are doing this big time (sans the cones of course). And, all the basics are mastered and hardwired in your brains and a few visual referances may assist you as push the envelop or keep you honest. I used to wonder about you guys and gals who were talking about just being inside the "3rd diagonal seam in turn 4", but I have just enough experience now and little bit of my imagination to appreciate that this is fact, and not fiction.

But, I suspect your referances also move...as in often being other cars...of folks out there who you can trust and you know how they perform relative to you, as well as those who you can't trust! Is this the case?

Mike

Professor Helmüt Tester

Mike - X-Ackery. You used a very important term - 'ocular driving'. That's what Bertil Roos used to teach in the 70's and 80's, and it is very much ignored/misunderstood. After you do this stuff enough, it becomes a subconscious reaction. You don't have to think about where you turn in for a corner...you just turn in. It's sometimes difficult to explain this to someone who wants to know your line around the track - I couldn't possibly describe where I turn in for the Ninety at Watkins Glen...or the Bus Stop for that matter. Something in my brain just says "turn now".

As you get more and more experience, you'll find yourself looking further and further down the track, and also be more informed about what's next to you and behind you. Your reference points get further away, or more subtle. The further out your attention is, the slower your 'perceived speed' is...less surprises...less commotion in the driver's seat...all of which adds up to a happier and faster driver. It also adds to the entertainment - I watch crashes behind me all the time...and can describe them in great detail, even though I'm still going like stink and have my hands full with what's next to me and in front of me. It's not something superhuman...it's just a skillset that I've chosen to develop. I am sometimes Chief Instructor weenie for several different race and HPDE schools, and for the last 8 years or so have added a whole classroom session and drills on 'vision skills', which nobody else seems to do. I just don't get it...it's so important, and almost universally ignored.

Here's another little Watkins Glen tidbit: Having trouble finding a good line thru T6 (the downhill left, into the boot, sometimes known as 'the laces') ? Well...it's a 'two-part turn'. You steer a just a little as the pavement starts to arc left, but the real trick is to hang on the right-hand edge of the pavement until you can make a full-throttle committment to the apex. When is that ? Well...there is a tire-wall on the outside of that corner, and if you turn your head and look out the driver's window, at some point you'll see the FAR END of that tire wall. It's when you see the END of the tirewall that is the 'cue' to make a committment to the apex.

This accomplishes two things - it gives you a good, solid reference to get to an apex that nearly everyone gets too waaaay too early (and then sacrifices 'throttle turn-on time'), AND it gets your attention 100-150 yds out in front of the car, so that if somebody has screwed it up big time, you'll see their roof pirouetting around BEFORE you have to commit to a line, and you'll avoid becoming part of their accident. (Edit - the bulldozers have been at work this fall in prep for the IRL guys next fall, so T6 probably won't look this way when the track opens in the spring)

Mike S.

Professor,

Thanks for the helpful feedback. By the way, I got the ocular vision thing from a fella named Jim Tulloch who I had for classroom instruction several times. Great fella. I also see some of what I'm learning and concluding is what JPS911S also wrote. It's neat to know I'm on the right track. (couldn't resist the pun...you know....lowest form of wit...blah blah blah).


But you're even wiser than you know!!!!!!! Re WGI T6...you wrote...



No foolin' here...my first solo run session, this exact turn, just after my turn in, I see dust and a yellow late model 911 facing the wrong way just past the apex!!!!!! I don't even think I ever saw a novice group car who went off track yet alone one in front of me just coming to a stop in a blind apex corner. I even caught the corner worker waving next. I was so happy that I saw this because I was looking ahead. Just like they taught me. You know, I kind of felt proud that I was doing what I was supposed to do and had plenty of time to move off line. I wished my driving and classroom instructor that day saw this because I think they would have been like proud parents! The whole event underscored to me how important it is to look ahead. But, I had absolutely no recollection of either seeing him ahead of me, or not seeing him ahead of me as I completed T5 (outer loop)....so I'd have to admit I wasn't looking far enough ahead. Great lesson for me to experience.

I know they say "Porsche...there is no substitute"....I'll extend this to "Track time and a good instructor...there is no substitute"

Mike

P.S. Professor...I see what's going on behind me too. I have forevermore embossed into my mind the image of the front end of 996TT. Those 2 big corner scoop reminded me of a vacuum sucking me up. He was an experience fella who was out in the novice group so he could learn how his new car feels. We were all pylons. It was either my first or second DE. Hate to say this, but I think I saw him twice in a couple of sessions. Helped me get the "point by" down pat.

sjanes

You should have driven Tremblant before the rennovation if you wanted pucker factor. Stone walls on both sides as you crest a hill that makes your car feel like it's going to take air on a track that wasn't as wide as my driveway. Giddyup.

I would think it would be the other way around. When an experienced driver (Black or Red group) shows up at a new track, they will probably get faster each session (or lap?) and have to spend a lot of their effort moving reference points around to compensate for the higher speeds. Wouldn't it be easier to use your vision skills to learn the track until your lap times become pretty consistent, and then start establishing reference points if you want?

sjanes

Amen to that brother

RJay

Interestingly, not by us AXers. At the Evolution School (a traveling troop of SCCA National Champions) its practically the only thing they really teach. At their Advanced school, students run a course they set up with a 10" wide piece of vinyl covering the lower half of the windshield. Very effective at making you look ahead and move focus outward. So much so that some AXers actually ran events with the lower half of the windshield covered until it was banned by the SCCA. Every one always talks about AXing in relation to car control, but frankly I think the real benefit is learning how to look ahead.

RedlineMan

Speaking of Mosport 1-5...




Hard to argue against that segment of black top. I can't decide if I like Mopsort or VIR best, but it's a wonderful dilema! Roller Coaster through Hog Pen gets my vote for Puckerage too.

By the way, Professer; that's the new Conti bridge in Turn 4. It's at the top of the hill now, and the sight lines are WIDE open all the way to Moss. Not near as scary, but still fast!

Unlike Bruce, I LOVE turn 3. Close enough to 2 that it is like an extension of it. Passing zone, lots of action. Slightly off camber, slightly bumpy. Who's the drunk that laid out that apex curb? I love blasting through there. Really, Bruce?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really would like to do an event without cones. I know I see them, if indirectly, but perhaps more than I should, and by now I should be able to do it without them. I really think that if they were not, my vision might improve. Otherwise, I just drive. I really don't know where I do anything, but I know I do it pretty well. Spatial. Little Visual Vignettes for each turn. Yep, that's me. Makes it hard to instruct someone else, at times.

brucegre

Stacey, of course you are right - I should have said the reference points are good for a relatively inexperienced driver in learning the whole experience. When I learned Mosport, I had a racer friend take me out for a session, then did a session with him in the passenger seat, than I did a couple on my own and then had to qualify the car for the race. The vision techniques we learn in the club were invaluable in learning the track quickly and being smooth and (reasonably) fast in my first weekend there. I didn't even try to figure out reference points, I just checked how fast I was against the competition and how comfortable I was in the car.

Mosport vs. Tremblant - I really like Tremblant, but I love Mosport. Committing to T8 at the speed it deserves, oh what a feeling. But the biggest rush is when the car bites at the bottom of T2 or T4.

RJay

Have yet to brave Mosport, but have to agree with the Hog Pen, although 1,2,3 at Tremblant as someone mentioned earlier, is right up there for me.

brucegre

Hey John H, we were posting at the same time I guess. I was a bit tongue in cheek with T3 at Mosport, mostly because I've found a ton of ways through that corner and none of them are fast. I guess I can't really blame the corner for that can I? And, funny thing, my best passing zone is coming out of 5b, but the next best is pretty much anywhere in T3. Guess I shouldn't complain

mds

Rupert's school was strong on vision. One exercise the whole windshield was blocked with a cardboard sunscreen. You do the AX by looking out the side windows, and at times the rear window. Repeat the run until you are comfortable sliding through the linked corners.

sjanes

When scheduling allows, I run in the touring group during the UCR club race at Mosport. I'd love to do the race itself, but alas, I'm a wimp. Anyway, the first year I did it, during lunch on the second day one of the guys I was with mentioned how nice it was to drive without cones everywhere . The odd thing was that I hadn't noticed they were gone. I love that event. Lots of track time at Mosport and I get to watch the club race between runs

I have to agree with John on T3. Fun, fast (for my Carrera anyway) corner that gives a good launch to T4, then a little lift, hard on the gas and down the hill to 5.