AJAKE7796

Let preface this thread by saying that I've served 20 years in the Fire Service. My speciality being Haz-Mat, fire suppression systems and command and control. I noticed that OG racing is sponsoring a group buy for 2.5lb Halon hand extinguishers. Halon is much superior to powdered suppression agents that will damage deliacte parts and electrical systems. Before this buy ever came to my attention, I've been concerned about fire saftey in my street drived 911. As most you know all sanctioned racing orgs are are as serious about 'trapped and burning', and throurgh many years of experience, the horror shows of 50's and 60's, rarely happen anymore. From the cockpit of my 26 year old 911 I do feel vunerable and do not think 2.5lbs of hand held Halon is going to save my bacon in a serious shunt. But I do believe that there are systems out there for us non-race Porsche guys not running fuel cells and aeroquip lines. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. So if there is anyone out there that has thought about this problem, I would like the benefit of your experience.
Cheers,
AJAKE

JCP911S

AJA... you have more experience than me, but in 14 years of track and racing, I've seen quite a few nasty shunts but I don;t believe I've ever seen a car catch fire. The closest you get is 930 Turbos blowing oil lines. you can never be too prepared, but the fuel tanks of 911 seem to be pretty robust despite their exposed location.

fatbillybob

Well jake,

You have the credentials but here is what I hear and surmise. Piped in fire bottles are the best. Mechanical systems offer most reliable systems. The hot stuff now is AFFF foam and Fireaid 2000 a better foam. Halon is supposed to work but it is toxic and has questionable efficacy on windy days in windows rolled down cars the way 99% must run on 99% of racetracks. When you have a fire you are not concerned with saving the car cosmetics just the car and your bacon. 10lbs bottles in 911 are the best or most use size. some use 1 nozzle for passengers 1 for engine 1 for fuel cell. IMO this is too much for 10lbs. I say either get another system for all three or no more than 2 spots per 10lbs. Most plumb the passenger comaprtment by the legs. Fire burns low to high. I'm not sure about that I have my nozzle pointing at my head spraying toward my feet. Personally I want 100% retardant on me, the car is second I can buy another one of those and the next one will be faster so let it burn. I think we need a way to test fire sytems plumbed in cars. There is lots of vibration and the aluminium plumbing is subject to rub though holes and failure at the single flare connectors. If these points fail you have no spray where you want it. Unfortunately there is no way to pressure test these systems. If I was making such systems I would have a screw lock to block the outlet of the nozzle and a T into presurize the system to hold air for a given time to test system integrity. Then you would need to be able to run air though the nozzles to make sure they were clear. open nozzles sitting especially in engine bays get dirty and clog. Bugs and crap climb into the nozzles in my passenger compartment. I do not like current systems. No one seems to care. The manufacturers just want to sell systems and as long as a competator does not raise the bar no improvements are made. I can build a better system and I'm a no body. Think about how the fire department tests Dry StandPipe systems. I take fire seriously and always wear 3 layer suits, baclava, and nomex underwear. Also, many do not care that old soiled nomex suits burn better than clean ones and IMO should be replaced just like helmets as racing disposibles. I am paranoid I use Isaac device and side nets and full cage. I often have turned down kind offers to drive others cars just because I am unsure or do not like how safety systems have been set-up.

Bob Rouleau

AJAKE - any comments on Halatron? I can't huy Halon here in Canada and Halatron is being offered as a substitute. Know anything about it?

Rgds

AJAKE7796

Sorry not getting back sooner, but since I retired from the fire service in '96' I had to do some fire suppression skull duggery. Here's what I found: Halon will off the market for any application next year. Halatron 1 seems to be the latest and best product out there. I visited the NASCAR regs site and found that the only approved suppression systems are Halon and Halatrol. Halatrol 1 is going to be the industry standard, no question. Pound for pound Halatrol 1 packs twice the punch, that is a 5lb bottle of Halatron 1 fire suppression equals to 10 lbs of Halon, without the toxicity, or environmental damage. It's military spec, so that says something. I put a call into 'Bager' a long time supplier of fire suppression equiptment, and a tec rep will give me a call back, so when I get the 'skinny' I'll post it. I also looked at a new lightweight powdered panel product that wraps around wraps around fuel cells or gas tanks, upon impact it releases and prevents ignition of fuel. I called the company and they seemed to be focusing on police applications and it has not been NASCAR approved as of yet. The 'Bager' rep just called me back and it seems like they only deal in hand held systems. He gave me a another lead to follow up on. There seems to be a duh factor here. 'Fatbillybob' take notice. Just need to figure out how to plump the Halatron 1 system for race/street car use ?
AJAKE

AJAKE7796

PS: might want to check out this web site............AJAKE

http://www.haifire.com/magazine/halo..._streaming.htm

AJAKE7796

This as well: http://www.firepanelllc.com/images/f...ochure_web.pdf

APKhaos

There was a long thread on this recently - may have been another board.
The bottom line was that Aqueous FIlm Forming Foam [AFFF] may be a better solution for race car fire suppression. Input came from a number fo highly qualified sources, including military. The fact that AFFF provides a positive barrier which knocks out one complete side fo the fire triangle seemed to be the key point. The fact that once Halon disburses [a factor in a car cabin fire] the effects are lost was also a key issue.

This is an area where expertise is required. I'm just noting my non-qualified reading of what was said by several qualified folks.

AFFF is also less expensive, and field re-chargeable.

macnewma

Lately my laymen's research has indicated that FireAde is the most effective fire extinguishing solution for fuel based fires (class B). It is similar to AFFF, but it supposedly more effective. The Safecraft EC, LT and RS systems can be filled with either AFFF or FireAde (or Halon/Halotron). From what I have read, everyone is using FireAde now.

Link to FireAde: http://www.fireadesource.com/fireade...ing-track.html
Link to a comparison of FireAde and AFFF: http://www.fireadesource.com/test-data.html
Link to a 2nd comparison of FireAde and AFFF: http://www.fireadesource.com/tests-practical.html
Link to Safecraft EC, LT and RS: http://www.safecraft.com/MextInstalled.asp

IMO, this is the only way to go with an automatic extinguisher. Halon has its place, but I don't think it is the most effective in a car environment. The biggest advantage Halon has over water-based methods (FireAde and AFFF) is that it can be used in high-voltage environments. Unless someone has an inverter and a Foreman grill attached to their rollcage I don't think it will be needed. Halon has many downsides in a car environment too. That was discussed recently.

Just my 2 cents...and as usual I disclaim my expertise as amateur.

Max

APKhaos

Nice work, Max. Thanks!
Looks like FireAde can be used in systems designed for AFFF - its the same charging principle in both cases. I have a new FireCharger system which is waiting to be installed, so I might investigate charging it with FireAde.

macnewma

No problem, IMO we all need to become more knowledgeable on the safety aspects of our cars. Most of this community's knowledge of how to make faster cars and drivers far out paces its knowledge of safety...myself included...albeit I don't know much on either side of the ball.

I actually emailed FireCharger to see if their system could accept FireAde. I probably won't hear back for a few days. I also emailed Safecraft and asked them which medium they prefer. I will post responses.

Max

Martin S.

Great thread. I have always been concerned that the 5 Lb. Halon extinguisher in my car could become a lethal weapon in the instance oif a serions roll over, or? Most halon bottles mounts I have seen are pretty flimsy. I have learned a lot from this thread...thanks for the info.