RJay

All this talk of driving the correct line reminds me of a point an instructor/racer (and a damn good one, not to mention scary fast) of mine made to me recently. What he pointed out is that the exit line should vary as a result of speed. His supposition, if I can articulate it, is that scribing the line at low speed, i.e going to the track out point even though there was no need as the car could easily make a tighter line due to lower exit speed, is counter productive. He asserted that driving the exit slowly on the theoretically correct path rather than the actual one for a given speed made it more likely that as the student got faster they'd find themselves running out of track and potentially getting themselves into trouble. By taking a line that is comensurate with the actual speed (and inside the envelope of the maximum one, i.e using less of the available track) the student learns to feel better where the car really wants to be.

Again he wasn't advocating driving an improper line and he wasn't advocating moving the student off the correct entry line or missing apexes. But he was against using more of the exit then one needed so that as one gets faster its only natural to use more it. I'm curious about others opinions on this. I found his notion rather interesting.

Brian P

Quick opinions...

I think it's useful to know where the car will end up if you don't move the steering wheel. This should be easily found out at any speed. Yes, things change at speed, but it does give you a good baseline.

What I think is FAR more important is to drive the proper line to the apex regardless of speed. All drivers should know this part of the turn intimately and long before they start adding speed. If you f*** up the turn, the sooner you learn that you are in trouble the easier it will be to correct it. If you have to wait until the apex to realize you are going to run out of track, there might not be anythiing you can do about it. If you realize as soon as you turn in, it's much easier to save the car.

So, in short, I'm not sure about the value of driving to the edge of the track at slower speed, but I am pretty sure of driving the right line up to the apex. Normally, everything after the apex should be pretty easy stuff.

Larry Herman

Ray, I don't agree with him, but need to first mention that this is a VERY subjective topic. I would prefer to have the student drive the line that they will eventually be using, based upon what type of car they drive. I also want them in the correct gears, etc. This way, as they build speed, they will be on the best line for them. As they naturally get faster, they will feel the car start to "want to go" to track out. Eventually, they will understand that they have to unwind the wheel to keep the car stable as it slides to track out. At this point in their ability (top of Blue group), you can have them purposely change the line to see the differences, and what feels better to them.

As a beginner, if you constantly have them change their basic line as they get faster, I feel that they will never have a reference point to guide them. Kind of like a constant. You want them to first learn how to come out of the corner hard, and if they are running the car right out to track out with no safety margin (read: driving out to track out rather than sliding or fighting to keep the car on the track) they will shy away from this. Then you wind up with them early apexing, neutral throttling halfway around the corner, and really only getting on the gas way after the apex point. And then they come to me and ask why they are driving as hard as they can, but are slow. I cannot tell you how many white drivers I have had to "re-train".

I also feel that as a novice, I do not want my student to be dealing with a car that is anything less than stuck down! As they gain experience, car control and understanding, their ability to approach the traction limits of the car will increase, and they will naturally be "pushing the limit" of the line.

ColorChange

I also think this is a subjective topic and I have little experience, but I lean toward agreement with your racer Rjay.

SundayDriver

I would have the student drive all the way out to the line, if needed, as I would not want them hunting and changing the line as they change speed.

Another aspect, is that if they take a tighter exit, they are missing the lesson about unwinding the wheel to gain speed. While it is a subtle and advanced point, why teach a bad habit when you can teach a good one.

APKhaos

This is an interesting, and potentially heretical, topic.

The 'correct' line, as taught by most clubs, may not be the fastest but will usually be the safest. I agree with Larry that the tendency among the white group drivers is to overdrive the car, which feels edgy but is actually slow. There are instances, particularly in complex connected corners, where the blend of 'classic' lines is slow, and its significantly faster to find the most direct route. The only downside to this is the the NEXT instructor that sees this is likely to admonish the driver for his 'erroneous' line in that section. I guess it comes down to teaching more advanced drivers what they are actually ready to handle. The conservative aproach for lower run groups makes absolute sense, adn is the only sane approach.

mpaton

RJay,

I agree with your friend's observations, but I disagree with his conclusions. My own inference when I try a new track or a different car, is that if I find I don't need to track all the way out, then I didn't get the power down early enough, or I slowed too much for the corner (assuming I got the line more or less correct)

However novice students aren't used to tracking out all the way, and even though they don't need to at the speeds we start off at, they need to get comfortable being that close to the edge of the track BEFORE the speeds start come up. When the speeds rise, they will HAVE to get close to the edge of the track, and I believe they need to know the sight picture of a car headed for the edge of the track but going to stay on it.

That way, the sight picture mostly just moves more rapidly, but looks much the same. Until we need to lead the turn in, or look for a later apex to get more exit speed, but that comes a bit later.

But on the whole I don't think it needs to be a religion thing, unless the student changes instructors before they get fully up to speed. There's a lot to be said for a standardized teaching line.

Michael

RJay

I probably should have added that I don't think my friend was advocating this for novice drivers. I can't say what level he thought was appropriate, but I suspect he was more referring to about-to-graduate-to-solo yellow drivers. Actually, he's so much bloody faster than me, now that I come to think of it, he probably was referring to the level of expertise possessed by the guy standing right in front of him at the time (I'm in white).

RedlineMan

It is an interesting thought.

For me, one of the trickiest parts of this game is knowing what a student will do as we approach the limit. If one has not experienced that, it is likely a freeze and lift when the first wiggle comes. If you're both lucky, it is not accompanied by a THUD and a stiff neck!

How does one get comfortable with high g loads at novice speeds? You know you want to get them some car control skills before you have to get in that right seat. Skid pad and autocross are two obvious choices, but not everyone does these first.

My take is that your friend is using the "pinched exit" approach to give the student a sense of side load as a precursor to dealing with future exit speed. In that sense I think we instructors can all see the value in that, as long as the student is made aware that this is an exercise, but the full track out is still the ultimate goal. To make sure the student realizes this distinction, it is probably best to refrain from this with first timers who likely won't understand, and may imprint this "incorrect" info.

I can DEFINITELY see some merit in the idea. I'm just not sure about the outcome of its implimentation.

mitch236

I think this idea of the line is important for the novice and is grouped into those things we teach that may not be truisms as the driver progresses, but still need to be learned. We teach the line like it is gospel. We also stress slow in fast out, always brake and shift in a straight line, smooth is fastest etc...

As you can see, none of the mantra we teach is true all the time, but it does give a novice a good foundation to learn from. The line is constantly changing for me but for a novice it should be constant. In the beginning, the less you have to think about, the better and that is why we teach these absolutes. They remove any thought about things like the line, braking, shifting etc... As the student progresses, then exercizes like line alteration become useful.

M758

When I instruct time and time again I find that the novice student never uses all of the road. They seem to make an imginary curve 2-3 feet from the edge of the road. I frequently tell to go closer and closer to the edge. This is not so much that they can go faster or feel more g's, but is in an attempt to feel LESS g-loading. This in turn enables them to go faster for the same g-load.

When I instruct my first goal (beyond flags and corner stations, passing rules & etiquette) is teaching lines. This is something most novice students are simply not aware of. I teach the line and want to show how a good line creates minimal side loads. This allows going faster without "feeling" like you are about to loose control. The feeling of control is inversly proportional to side load. The more Lateral G's a novice student feels the less control he/she will feel they have. For a track first timer there is little point in trying to push the lateral G threshold higher. I find much more valuable and safer to teach how a good line through a corner allows to go fast and still have a low lateral G load.

IMHO there are many Porsche drivers that want to "LEARN HOW TO DRIVE" their high performacne cars. They may not want to progress in to racers, but they do want to feel safe in the superfast car. Well teach them how to approach a corner so that you can take rapidly, but also very safely and you have given them somethign valuable. That is where the line comes in. Teach that and next time they are on their favorite back road they can driver it right and much more safly at the same speed because they are using proper turn, apex and track out points and proceedures.

I only concern myself with teaching students to expand the tolerance for lat g's if they have the line down and desire to go faster.

Bob Rouleau

M758 - I agree with your comments. In our region we also teach students to track out even if it isn't needed at lower speeds. You cited a number of good reasons for this and I agree. There are a couple of others too - at low speeds pinching the turn at high lateral Gs is not a risk. As the driever's speeds increase, pinching is dangerous since lower Gs are less likely to produce a loss of control. In low power cars, I always remind my student that trying to accelerate with the wheels turned saps power -like trying to push a car stuck in snow with the wheels turned.

FWIW, our region does not have a "slow in fast out" mantra. The emphasis is on momentum. Newbies do get the brake in a straight line sermon, but once they progress, we teach trail braking assuming that the driver is smooth enough on the brakes to be able to handle it.

Rgds,

Larry Herman

M758 (if that is your real name) I feel that your explanation about G loading and your approach with novice drivers is "spot on". Very lucid and well thought out post.

JCP911S

We all know there is no such thing as "The Line" it is a model representing the path that a car cornering at some speed and staying on the road will take. The path a car takes changes with speed, as factors such as tire slip change.... so the model "line" also changes with speed

We give novices a simple model that they can grasp and execute quickly, and then this model becomes more sophisticated as the student become more proficient... but it is always a model.

Driving is very much like throwing a baseball... except the target is the apex, not the catchers glove... once the baseball leaves the pitchers hand he can no longer influence it... all he can influence is the mechanics of his arm and his release point.

Driving at the limit (or as close to the limit as I can ever get), all I look at is aiming the car at the apex.... once I've committed, there is virtually nothing I can do to change it... the car is going to do what it is going to do... i'm just a passenger holding the wheel steady.

How successful I was at (smoothly) "throwing" the car at the apex at the start of the turn simply determines how early I can flatfoot the gas... dead on, and I can get on it earlier.... if I'm off I have to feather a bit longer... that's the only decision... in reality I am not controlling the 'line'..... the car is doing that...I'm simply operating the throttle. (of coiurse if you really screw up you have to bail, but that's antother discussion)

To optimize speed through the corner, the apex is adjusted earlier or later, just at the catcher will change his glove to get an outside fastball or an inside sinker.

I'm not going to teach a green student to drive like that... so we create "lines" to simulate this and allow them to practice until they develop consistency.

Tom W

Well my $0.02 as one who's gone through the transition this year.

My instructors all wanted me to drive the line (and fully track out) even if I was going slow. In addition, I was often instructed to drive slower until I could consistently hit the apex of every turn on the track. I was told the speed would come, but control was more important. I did as instructed and found it helped me with car position (being able to consitently get to a couple inches of the edge of the pavement) and the feeling that I wasn't pushing as hard as the car would allow. After about 25 DE days in the last 10 months, it has started to really come together. While no instructor ever articulated it like M758 just did, his post echos my feeling of the way my driving has changed. I just spent 3 days at the track and found that with greatly increased speed I was able to consitently hit my apexes and drift out (not drive out) to the edge of the track yet maintain full control.

I believe in practicing what you are supposed to be doing, not what comes easiest.