ltc

Phil,
Is this the one you purchased?
http://www.clracing.com/clracing/ima...ber%202004.jpg
http://www.clracing.com/clracing/r3.htm

I had it in my H&N research pile, but haven't heard much about it.

RedlineMan

Heckydurn!

I had passed right by Phil's addition to the sum knowledge here. Thanks for posting pics, Lew. I am VERY glad you did. I had not heard of or seen this item until just now, but it instantly occurs to me that it might be the best of all worlds. The fact that it appears to be manufactured by Safety Solutions (Hutchens, D-Cel) is even better.

As I see it, the use of an H&N device for our recreational DE purposes comes down to convenience. Many of us are in and out of our cars so many times - and for we instructors, mulitple cars, often on the run in between - that it is extremely difficult to see how these items will fit into our routines.

Initially I had decided that the harness type H&N was the best for me because of the price. Then I noted the 2-3 year "lifespan" claimed for them, and they suddenly didn't seem so cheap. Couple that with the hassle of all the straps, buckles, crotch rotch... etc.

I had dissected things down to the point that the HANS seemed to be the easiest to live with in and out of the car. No adjustments, no straps, no clips, just drop it on your shoulders and slip your hat on. I was set.

Recently, Safety Solutions posted a blurb disscussing the potentially less-than-optimal offset performance of any system that relied on the belts for retention. Damn... now what? Back to the harness type, or go with the HANS anyway?

I think after viewing the photos of the "R3" that it might just represent the best aspects of both systems without all of the drawbacks.

The fence is getting an extreme workout here!

ltc

John,
As is usually the case, there appears to be no optimal H&N solution. I do agree 100% that any H&N is better than no H&N.

The HANS is very specific regarding belt-seat-rollbar angles:
http://www.schroth.com/pdf/hans/06%2...er%20Belts.pdf
http://www.schroth.com/pdf/hans/06%2...h%20Straps.pdf
http://www.schroth.com/pdf/hans/06%2...ap%20Belts.pdf
and there are reports of the shoulder belts slipping off (note that the 'Euro' style of the HANS has rolled edges to help keep the shoulder belts on top of the rubber surface). I tried on a 20R at LRP and didn't like the way it fit initially. The US importer for Schroth/HANS (HMSMotorsport) is only 50 miles from me, I'm probably going to take my car and myself up there for a fitting/consultation before I scratch HANS off the list. It's hard to argue with HANS performance after seeing some F1 hits this year (70g+ ). The HANS is certainly one of the most documented H&N systems.

The Hutchens/D-Cel devices have the drawbacks you mention, plus SAE report (2002-01-3304 which I paid for and downloaded) show questionable improvement (although the report was authored by HANS et.al.)

The ISAAC doesn't transport well (although the ingenious solution from a previous post of bow tie locking cotters on the belt roller pins solves that), but it doesn't fit my belts! I currently have the TeamTech Rampac 6 points and the shoulder belt widths are greater than 3" due to the shoulder padding provided, thus they won't allow the ISAAC belt roller to move forward along the belt in an impact. Damned shame, as I really like those harnesses. I could just buy standard 3" harnesses. The ISAAC was at the top of the list for a while. The damper idea just seemed better than the tethers on the HANS.

The R3 does look interesting, sort of a cross between a HANS and Hutchens/D-Cel. The only concern I would have is comfort with the 'tail' of the unit along my spine when in the seat and the potential for injury in a rearward impact. It would be nice to be able to try one on. There is nothing resulting from a Google search (apart from what I posted above), so there really isn't much out there at this time.

I have the Recaro ProRacer SPG XL and am comfortable with the lateral head protection/distance restriction the seat provides, along with some H&N......just which one?!

ltc

Here is a link to a HANS from Stand21:
http://www.fransurf.com/lareunion/st...ans-2004-2.htm
Of interest is the small 'lips' to keep the shoulder belts from slipping off. Perhaps these are custom units for professional drivers or designed for Schroth's 2"-3" HANS shoulder belts?
(they also claim to be lighter and cheaper than Hubbard/Downing)
FWIW, I still do not understand the differences between HANS devices from HANS(US, Hubbard/Downing), Schroth and Stand21. The last 2 are 'engineered by Schroth or Stand21' and appear slightly different. I would have thought they would be exact copies.
http://www.fransurf.com/lareunion/st...%20auto-2.html
http://www.schroth.com/pdf/hans/SCHROTH_HANS_07_05.pdf
Does anyone know of any other details?

PhilW

Lewis, yes that is the one I bought. As expected it looks better on the model than me. I do not find it uncomfortable at all.

All the straps are Kevlar which has less stretching plus added bullet protection now that the assault weapons band has expired.

For me this was a good decision

fatbillybob

Redlineman wrote:"The question that springs to mind is that with nothing approaching a solid surface to support, what did anyone think this brace would contact if the seat moved? In this installation, it should have been termed a "back brace" because there was little proximate to it but the driver's spine! As I mentioned, this setup passed PCA and NASA tech."

The whole concept of back brace scares me as the braces I have seen have too little surface area IMO. I don't think the thin carbonkevlar of my OMP seat is much better than the wire strap seat.

fatbillybob

As to the difference between euro hans and us hans I think the US hubbard/downing licensed HANS manufacture in europe. I'm not sure why they get to change the device however. I asked the US HANS if I could buy an euro HANS. I got a criptic answer I could not understand. If I were to buy one I guess you have to go to a euro source. Personally I think the belts slipping off the HANS is a real issue and the wings are needed. Stroth made the 2"-3" harness units just to solve this problem. It appears that the violence of a crash and the resultant belt stretch does not reduce the record of HANS safety but does hurt my mental piece of mind on the retension of the device. Isaac is on rollars and can't come off the harness. Isaac also must be able to roll on your belts so you can't use a shoulder pad.

ltc

Phil,
Thanks for the reply. I would have thought the piece in the back would be uncomfortable once you're strapped into the race seat.

Also, did you buy it from the link I posted?
I went to the Safety Solutions/Hutchens website and there is nothing listed at all.
Any additional links/info you have on this would be greatly appreciated.

924RACR

I like the initial look of the R3, but on closer inspection I don't like the effectiveness quite as much as the HANS, due to the load paths. It also shares the limitation the HANS has on effectiveness at oblique angles, based on inspection of the design IMO. I'd prefer it over the Hutchens or D-Cel, but would prefer a HANS still over that.

PhilW

Lewis, the only thing I have noticed once I am strapped in the car is the R3 has limited my ability to turn my helmet. If someone is at the driver's window and next to my shoulder I can't turn to see them. I can still easily see all my mirrors. It does come with foam so you can adjust your seat back but I have not needed to do this. Where I notice the R3 the most is when I am standing with it on, it promotes good posture.

I bought it from Jim at at Apex SPG, his ad is on the inside front cover of Pano, he's a good helpful guy. He has the Hans and the two with straps thru the crotch in addition to the R3. After looking at all four I chose this - I am not positive but I think they were all around $900 or so.

The F1 guys seem to be almost laying down and strapped in so tight that the Hans looks to be a great fit for that application. I am not convinced that I am as tightly strapped in as the F1 guys plus I am up right. I don't find the two sub straps from the seat belt all that comfortable and did not want to add two more straps.

I bought mine after trying it on, which I would encourage others to do as well. If it is not comfortable you may stop using it and it not effective unless you use it.

BrandonH

OK, I dutifully bought a sidenet from BSR when this was first posted, and it just showed up at the office in time for me to install it prior to VIR. However, it doesn't come with any instructions or guidelines. I assume the three tails attach to the upper roll hoop, the diagnal cross bar, and the harness bar. But how about the front? I removed the "knee" bar last year because it was too low; is there another hard point I can mount to? Does anyone use the forward roll hoop or is that too high? From photos I've seen looks like you'd like a dash level cross bar in front...

JCP911S

I think the key to the HANS is lateral containment from the seat. In a sharp oblique or lateral impact, the HANS may not stay under the belts, and won't add much protection if it did. The seat needs to carry the mail here.

You see seats (Kirkey comes to mind) with tight wings around the ribs for lateral containment. May be great for cornering, but in a heavy impact, I'm not sure the ribs are the place you want all the Gs to go.... this design seems to be fading out.

Containment should logically be at the hips and shoulders as these have the strongest side to side structure. Most race seats are well contained at the hips.... but most have "wings" coming out at an angle behind the shoulders.... I would think a squared off design comperable to the hip containment would be more effective.

A guy in our club had a hard rear quarter impact, and the shoulder wing hit his shoulder right behind the socket and dislocated his shoulder.... not good.

I suspect this design stems more from traditional design/fits more sizes of person that absolute collision performance. THe NASCAR seats definately seem to be moving to more lateral shoulder containment.... formula cars automatically provide shoulder condainment due to the narrow cockpit.

924RACR

You've pretty much got that all right, JCP. But the right side net, with its members in tension, provides much better containment than the cantilevered sides of a reinforced seat.

As for mounting the net, it should be close by your shoulder if not touching, and project straight ahead from there to the dash bar (not the halo bar). The net, where next to your seated position, should be basically covering you from the shoulder to the head. These pics might give some idea (ignore the Petty bar, it's gone now): http://www.vaughanscott.com/construction/safety.htm

My mounting points are dash bar, top of main hoop, middle bar of main hoop, and rear seatbelt anchor. I still need to add better lateral location for those straps, though.

JCP911S

924... seems like damn cheap insurance. Does it have a quick release? Do you use the same configuration on the left?

BrandonH

Thanks Vaughn. I am going to have to find another mounting point for the front strap since I removed my knee bar and haven't welded in a new one yet. Maybe just reach down under the dash and sink an eyebolt somewhere.
John, the net does have a quick release snap ring, you can see in in the photos with a piece of red webbing attached. Also it mounts under high tension, it has a ratchet on the strap which is a miniature version of the tie-down strap ratchets you use on a car trailer.