Slow in Fast out explained
06-10-2005 | 10:52 PM
#46
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Vegas;
You did well to back off a bit. Kudos. One thing you have not factored in is that PCA in the West is NOTHING like in the East. If you guys are getting up to speed out there, you are doing what we have been for 10-20 years. Not to be arrogant, but the NE has been doing this for many years and we do have a good handle on what works. Is there room for imrpovement? Undoubtedly. Witness the National Program, developed largely by NE PCA track junkies who've been doing this stuff to a very high level for DECADES.
When I go out with someone, I assume they have less sense than a Suck-Egg-Mule. When they don't know what they don't know, it is best to TELL them what to do, and make it SAFE. SIFO Rules! Trying to get some greenhorn to rim the inside at full speed and TB into the apex is a recipe for disaster. Far from teaching them car control, they'll only learn bowel control... one can only hope. If the goal were to cut down on participation, scaring the $hit out of your students would be one way.
If they get to the point where they feel like they will simply fly off the road using that late turn in, then they probably also then have the experience to decipher the code of fast driving technique. Now they will know what they know, will be able to drive to a high subconscious level, and be able to apply differing theories without dinging the fence!
That's really what Msr. Rouleau WANTED to say, but I've had a few pints tonite, with a bump for good measure, so I agreed to blow MY gasket instead!
Now, the rest a you clowns don't have a fargin clue about real driving cause your cars are all too fast. When you can chart your laps on a calendar, come see me.
Otherwise, Chris, that is a pretty well phrased synopsis. I myself draw well defined distinctions in types of TB. The classic style is for purposes of getting the car to rotate in decreasing radius turns, often to lengthen a straightaway. That, or when you've just really overcooked it in ANY given turn, and getting the tail to wag is your only chance to convince the angel's to sing!
I utilize what I refer to as Balance or Maintenance TB in virtually every corner. This is a very light application of brake in the transition zone from full turn in to full acceleration that keeps things settled. I do this with the left foot.
As for early or late turn ins, you can indeed do early turn ins in MANY corners, but you better have big'ens to motor in with mondo speed... like Turn 1 at WGI. Hey... Larry doesn't walk bow-legged for nuthin! Like Mr. FStock Scotto said, brake enough to find the right RPM for the cornering gear, dial it in tight, throttle it up, and have your hands ready to saw wood! Just don't try it at your first DE.
Time for another pint!
You did well to back off a bit. Kudos. One thing you have not factored in is that PCA in the West is NOTHING like in the East. If you guys are getting up to speed out there, you are doing what we have been for 10-20 years. Not to be arrogant, but the NE has been doing this for many years and we do have a good handle on what works. Is there room for imrpovement? Undoubtedly. Witness the National Program, developed largely by NE PCA track junkies who've been doing this stuff to a very high level for DECADES.
When I go out with someone, I assume they have less sense than a Suck-Egg-Mule. When they don't know what they don't know, it is best to TELL them what to do, and make it SAFE. SIFO Rules! Trying to get some greenhorn to rim the inside at full speed and TB into the apex is a recipe for disaster. Far from teaching them car control, they'll only learn bowel control... one can only hope. If the goal were to cut down on participation, scaring the $hit out of your students would be one way.
If they get to the point where they feel like they will simply fly off the road using that late turn in, then they probably also then have the experience to decipher the code of fast driving technique. Now they will know what they know, will be able to drive to a high subconscious level, and be able to apply differing theories without dinging the fence!
That's really what Msr. Rouleau WANTED to say, but I've had a few pints tonite, with a bump for good measure, so I agreed to blow MY gasket instead!
Now, the rest a you clowns don't have a fargin clue about real driving cause your cars are all too fast. When you can chart your laps on a calendar, come see me.
Otherwise, Chris, that is a pretty well phrased synopsis. I myself draw well defined distinctions in types of TB. The classic style is for purposes of getting the car to rotate in decreasing radius turns, often to lengthen a straightaway. That, or when you've just really overcooked it in ANY given turn, and getting the tail to wag is your only chance to convince the angel's to sing!
I utilize what I refer to as Balance or Maintenance TB in virtually every corner. This is a very light application of brake in the transition zone from full turn in to full acceleration that keeps things settled. I do this with the left foot.
As for early or late turn ins, you can indeed do early turn ins in MANY corners, but you better have big'ens to motor in with mondo speed... like Turn 1 at WGI. Hey... Larry doesn't walk bow-legged for nuthin! Like Mr. FStock Scotto said, brake enough to find the right RPM for the cornering gear, dial it in tight, throttle it up, and have your hands ready to saw wood! Just don't try it at your first DE.
Time for another pint!
Last edited by RedlineMan; 06-12-2005 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Spelling
06-10-2005 | 11:35 PM
#47
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Holy jayzus John, did you and I just agree on something? 
I'd like to start a movement here - let's nuke thje SIFO term and simply say "late apex".
As Larry observes, we all use differing techniques depending on the turn. All of them have a purpose. Teaching a raw novice is first a matter of SAFETY - every instructor's priority given a driver with suboptimal skills. As the skills improve we can reduce the safety margin and teach more advanced tecniques. For example, would any of us teach trail braking to a person who cannot heel and toe correctly? How about the driver who hammers the brakes and releases as abruptly?
Rennsport also uses the blitz technique - every car gets an instructor. We use the opportunity to teach them more advanced stuff, I love the no brakes race myself - go as fast as you can without ever touching the brakes. Eyes light up when they realize how much faster you can enter a corner. We also do off line corner entry - late passes are going to happen and we prefer to teach them how to do it and avoid the swerves back onto the line nearly clipping the passed car.
We blitz ALL run groups and occasionally a driver gets demoted becase s/he just doesn't belong in a higher group.
Vegas - I wrote the promotion criteria for our Region. It is now used by NER, NCR and perhaps others. The former were polite enough to ask I also have a nice instructor and student driving manual - the latter can be downloaded from the rennsport.ca website. You will find the words trail braking in it!
Lastly - one of the reasons the National Program got started in PCA is that there is a lot of disparity. The NE is fairly uniform and the program is largely based on manuals from various regions in Zone 1 and Trackmasters. As you go West and South things get err, uh, help me John, aahh, different. Not that there aren't some good programs there, but there are some that are not.
Best,
I'd like to start a movement here - let's nuke thje SIFO term and simply say "late apex".
As Larry observes, we all use differing techniques depending on the turn. All of them have a purpose. Teaching a raw novice is first a matter of SAFETY - every instructor's priority given a driver with suboptimal skills. As the skills improve we can reduce the safety margin and teach more advanced tecniques. For example, would any of us teach trail braking to a person who cannot heel and toe correctly? How about the driver who hammers the brakes and releases as abruptly?
Rennsport also uses the blitz technique - every car gets an instructor. We use the opportunity to teach them more advanced stuff, I love the no brakes race myself - go as fast as you can without ever touching the brakes. Eyes light up when they realize how much faster you can enter a corner. We also do off line corner entry - late passes are going to happen and we prefer to teach them how to do it and avoid the swerves back onto the line nearly clipping the passed car.
We blitz ALL run groups and occasionally a driver gets demoted becase s/he just doesn't belong in a higher group.
Vegas - I wrote the promotion criteria for our Region. It is now used by NER, NCR and perhaps others. The former were polite enough to ask
I also have a nice instructor and student driving manual - the latter can be downloaded from the rennsport.ca website. You will find the words trail braking in it!Lastly - one of the reasons the National Program got started in PCA is that there is a lot of disparity. The NE is fairly uniform and the program is largely based on manuals from various regions in Zone 1 and Trackmasters. As you go West and South things get err, uh, help me John, aahh, different. Not that there aren't some good programs there, but there are some that are not.
Best,
06-11-2005 | 02:53 AM
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All I can say is thanks for this thread! I can add nothing to the discussion, but sure am gaining much.
And as for the "freeze your hands and look into the corner, not at the turn in..." advice, may I say as an intermediate driver that understanding this was the beginning of truly driving better. Not *just* faster, but with better control and less drama ...things actually felt slower, but lap times improved. Again, great discussion all. Thank you!
Edward
And as for the "freeze your hands and look into the corner, not at the turn in..." advice, may I say as an intermediate driver that understanding this was the beginning of truly driving better. Not *just* faster, but with better control and less drama ...things actually felt slower, but lap times improved. Again, great discussion all. Thank you!
Edward
06-11-2005 | 03:00 AM
#49
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From: Henderson, NV
Ok, so you understand. In our region, people can run white, then yellow orange, and then red. Almost, whatever they want , when they want No one really qualifies them to go to the faster groups!! I am not kidding.
Your events sound a lot better organized and managed. I'm really very pleased for the discussion on this thread I learned a lot and I had no idea the great disparity between regions/zones.
But, after running white -what training is there in your regions to specifically move people up, what skills do they have to master to run orange or red? When are advanced skills taught in PCA?
Thanks
Your events sound a lot better organized and managed. I'm really very pleased for the discussion on this thread I learned a lot and I had no idea the great disparity between regions/zones.
But, after running white -what training is there in your regions to specifically move people up, what skills do they have to master to run orange or red? When are advanced skills taught in PCA?
Thanks
06-11-2005 | 09:27 AM
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Ahhh, Vegas...
Now THERE you have hit on a universal point of disparity. Criteria for moving up can sometimes be little more than "we need room in White, you're promoted." It is an exceedingly difficult task to get everyone placed in the proper atmosphere regarding intermediate-to-advanced drivers, but makes all the difference in the world regarding everyone's fun factor. A registrar has to do a lot of networking and schmoozing to find out who drives how well in order to avoid placing folks in the wrong situations. Never does the Old Driver's Network get more of a workout than in the Northeast with people travelling all over to do events with various regions.
We struggle with the same things you mention. There has been a lot of pressure from below in recent years as more novice drivers take up the sport. This has seen a lot of new people come into the advanced groups, and without the rubric of a highly structured program, things can and do get a bit messy.
Rennsport has somewhat of an advantage in being a bit "isolated" up there, and in catering to a large percentage of known quantities. They also obviously have a very dedicated instructor corp and a highly quantified program that does not allow folks to slip through the cracks.
There are indeed increasing efforts at being more proactive with our "lost souls" than in the past. The word has been out for a while that it's time to clean up the intermediate war zones! Instructors are encouraged to prowl the staging lane and randomly jump into intermediate group cars for a look see. In an all volunteer organization, it is sometimes hard to expect that folks will find the wherewithal to be that dedicated, but it sure helps!
Last edited by RedlineMan; 06-12-2005 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Spelling
06-11-2005 | 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by M758
The problem with slow in fast out is not being at 60 mph at the corner.
The problem is that a slow in fast out often means to a driver
"Take it easy on the way in and go like stink on the wayout"
Well that is slow because you really need to be going like stink on the way IN as well as on they way out.
This is not an excuse to outbrake youself and shoot past an apex point. The basic concept to not slow down as much on the way in. Most novice as they learn to drive learn the basic line and the ability to modulate the throttle on the way out of a corner. This actually quite easy. Instuctors teach slow in fast out because it safer and the natural tendancy is for drivers to "charge" a corner barely make the through and result in a slow exit and white kunckles.
As drivers learn to control the car on the way out they can master how much throttle it takes to get out of the corner. The only way to get faster is to address the part of the corner they did not focus on when starting. That is corner entry.
I learned alot from switching from 250 hp 951 to my 150 hp 944. What I learned is that my 944 was darn slow and had no hp, but it could grip like hell.
So the only way to make the car keep-up to guys did before was to not slow down. If I slowed down just a bit too much then I never make it down the next straight.
So I learned to use less brakes in the braking zone. I learned to go faster on corner entry since if I used my 951 entry the car would be slow. Putting power down was easy and I needed get it down ASAP and slow down as little as possble. So my focus was dead set on not slowing down in corner entry.
That did not mean late braking. In fact that usally meant to me to brake sooner and lighter and turn in a little soon to try to get the max raduis on the corner. A late apex was fine for high hp 951, but in my 944 NA I did not need to be going dead straight to apply power. So turn in sooner and take more geometric line. I found myself applying power long before I did in the 951 and slowing the car much less. I found myself trailing on the brakes at turn in in attempt to get the car to rotate more so that I could carry more speed at turn in.
Then I started braking a little later. Then I found myself braking after others start. Turning in before they did and braking after turn in to an overall higher speed at mid corner and thus more speed at throttle application which just happend to be sooner than everyone else. Result... I could stay with a number 951's at the track as long as I was not too close and get stuck behind then as they went "slow in" to the same corner I barely slowed for. Think they go down two gears and I went down just one.
Hmm slow in .. nope fast in fast out.
Of course there are still a few corners were you have to "go slow" to go fast. Places were it does not help to carry speed into corners. Of the tracks I have been two there is at most 1 corner like that on each track. At other none like that. Just about all the corners benfit from carrying speed on the way in however. The trick to this is that if you carry to much speed it can slow you down either by going off track or my missing your apex point.
The problem is that a slow in fast out often means to a driver
"Take it easy on the way in and go like stink on the wayout"
Well that is slow because you really need to be going like stink on the way IN as well as on they way out.
This is not an excuse to outbrake youself and shoot past an apex point. The basic concept to not slow down as much on the way in. Most novice as they learn to drive learn the basic line and the ability to modulate the throttle on the way out of a corner. This actually quite easy. Instuctors teach slow in fast out because it safer and the natural tendancy is for drivers to "charge" a corner barely make the through and result in a slow exit and white kunckles.
As drivers learn to control the car on the way out they can master how much throttle it takes to get out of the corner. The only way to get faster is to address the part of the corner they did not focus on when starting. That is corner entry.
I learned alot from switching from 250 hp 951 to my 150 hp 944. What I learned is that my 944 was darn slow and had no hp, but it could grip like hell.
So the only way to make the car keep-up to guys did before was to not slow down. If I slowed down just a bit too much then I never make it down the next straight.
So I learned to use less brakes in the braking zone. I learned to go faster on corner entry since if I used my 951 entry the car would be slow. Putting power down was easy and I needed get it down ASAP and slow down as little as possble. So my focus was dead set on not slowing down in corner entry.
That did not mean late braking. In fact that usally meant to me to brake sooner and lighter and turn in a little soon to try to get the max raduis on the corner. A late apex was fine for high hp 951, but in my 944 NA I did not need to be going dead straight to apply power. So turn in sooner and take more geometric line. I found myself applying power long before I did in the 951 and slowing the car much less. I found myself trailing on the brakes at turn in in attempt to get the car to rotate more so that I could carry more speed at turn in.
Then I started braking a little later. Then I found myself braking after others start. Turning in before they did and braking after turn in to an overall higher speed at mid corner and thus more speed at throttle application which just happend to be sooner than everyone else. Result... I could stay with a number 951's at the track as long as I was not too close and get stuck behind then as they went "slow in" to the same corner I barely slowed for. Think they go down two gears and I went down just one.
Hmm slow in .. nope fast in fast out.
Of course there are still a few corners were you have to "go slow" to go fast. Places were it does not help to carry speed into corners. Of the tracks I have been two there is at most 1 corner like that on each track. At other none like that. Just about all the corners benfit from carrying speed on the way in however. The trick to this is that if you carry to much speed it can slow you down either by going off track or my missing your apex point.
Now, back to trying to do it.
06-11-2005 | 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Holy jayzus John, did you and I just agree on something?
I'd like to start a movement here - let's nuke the SIFO term and simply say "late apex".
In other words, While SIFO is HIGHLY relative and variable, it IS descriptive of a general and sage novice framework. "What to do," is clear, in a very basic sense, even if you are cast out by yourself. Without someone to explain it, "Late Apex" means nothing.
No... I think it is as useful as ever. Perhaps... the addition of an asterisk?
06-11-2005 | 09:46 AM
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John - We have had a few amusing instances of "falling through the cracks". Two years ago, Johannes Von Overbeek and Lonnie Pechnic signed up for a DE. They registered showing no experience at Tremblant. Our registrar put them in Green. I had to laugh out loud. They came to learn the track before the Rolex 6 hours. Very nice guys and totally polite on track.
Our data base helps classify folks and as you point out, there is always a lot of correspondence between CI's of neighboring regions regarding drivers who have signed up for an out of region event. I also agree that the war zone is the intermediate groups - they learn bad habits fast. Hence the Blitz technique which works well. We have another advantage, a pro flagger crew (always the same gang) who provide a lot of good info on what's going on out there.
Vegas - promotion requires a check ride and sign off by a senior instructor. Newcomers from out of region get a check ride to: teach them the local tricks and lines and; see if their self classification stands up to reality.
We have an interesting situation at our event next week. An out of region driver who was with us in Green last year. His instructor rated him as "terrible" suggest a sign-off to "golf".
He has signed up this year as a Black (most advanced group one below instructors) driver after a total of 8 track days. I am suspicious and he will get an instructor.
Best,
Our data base helps classify folks and as you point out, there is always a lot of correspondence between CI's of neighboring regions regarding drivers who have signed up for an out of region event. I also agree that the war zone is the intermediate groups - they learn bad habits fast. Hence the Blitz technique which works well. We have another advantage, a pro flagger crew (always the same gang) who provide a lot of good info on what's going on out there.
Vegas - promotion requires a check ride and sign off by a senior instructor. Newcomers from out of region get a check ride to: teach them the local tricks and lines and; see if their self classification stands up to reality.
We have an interesting situation at our event next week. An out of region driver who was with us in Green last year. His instructor rated him as "terrible" suggest a sign-off to "golf".
He has signed up this year as a Black (most advanced group one below instructors) driver after a total of 8 track days. I am suspicious and he will get an instructor.
Best,
06-11-2005 | 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Joe, I reread this thread and wanted to give you proper credit. Your posts on this thread have been awesome and I agree wholeheartedly. Now back to trying to do it.
06-11-2005 | 09:53 AM
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Tim - I'm still stuck on the SIFO because in my head it means nothing more than taking a slower line into a particular corner (not all mind you) in order to be able to accelerate earlier and carry more speed onto a straight. It's not just a safety blanket, it is a technique to go faster.
Rgds,
Rgds,
06-11-2005 | 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Tim - I'm still stuck on the SIFO because in my head it means nothing more than taking a slower line into a particular corner (not all mind you) in order to be able to accelerate earlier and carry more speed onto a straight. It's not just a safety blanket, it is a technique to go faster.
Rgds,
Rgds,
By taking a lower line i.e. effectively turning in early, the braking zone is extended 150+ feet. Its also much easier to do as the turn into 1 from the high line involves balancing the car at higher speed when coming off the Nascar oval onto the road course which results in a fairly abrupt camber change mid corner. As corner 2a (a fairly low speed 90 degree turn) follows extremely closely on the heals of 1, there is little advantage to carrying more speed in the turn itself as you simply have to slow for 2 anyway. Whereas the low line, which means a slower entry speed to negotiate the corner allows you to get an extra couple of hundred feet at full burn on the straight, with the added bonuses of simplifying the turn, making it safer if you overcook it (as if you brake too late you just go straight off onto grass) while allowing you to be more on the gas at the entry for 2a.
So I suspect that here's an example where SIFO actually had nothing to do with the out part but actually had more to do with the in part which is somewhat the inverse of more speed on entry to a straight but winds up resulting in a SIFO corner, which indeed seems to be faster.
06-12-2005 | 11:16 AM
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A couple comments on West Coast PCA instruction - It's where most of mine has come from where and I recently did the National Instructors course. In the Bay Area (GGR or CDS) straight line braking and SIFO/later apex is the simplified version provided to the greenest students to ensure they can get around the tracks safely. Once competence is demonstrated and they demonstrate reasonable awareness and car control, then TB, left foot braking and just about everything else that has been discussed in this thread is taught.
I'd summarize the theme of our instruction as give them a safe basis to start and then teach them how to incrementally improve without overwhelming them.
I'd summarize the theme of our instruction as give them a safe basis to start and then teach them how to incrementally improve without overwhelming them.
06-13-2005 | 12:08 PM
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I am an Arizona Instructor.
With novice students I ALWAYS teach slow in fast out and brake in straight line.
The reason is simple. They have alot to learn and I they have no business trail braking in any corner or trying to car max speed in. They need to learn the basic line, apex and have some semblance of car control and the ability to feel the car before they can even attempt such things.
Most folks I teach are feeling like they are learning from a fire hose even without trail braking. To intoduce that is recipe for disaster. My main goal for green first time to the track novice is to send them home in car as pretty as when it arrived. I want o keep them safe on the track for themselves, others and of course myself.
A driver really needs to understand the basics first then move to advanced tecniques. Really a driver cannot learn to trail brake unless they have sound car control skills. One fast move in trail braking can send the car flying to the weeds. So the driver must have the skills to be able to detect a situation AND have the ability to correct it. Without those skills a trail braking driver is one getting close to his next spin.
I have had students who trail brake when novices. I try to keep them from doing it. Most of time I can stop, but a couple times they continue and continue until I feverish telling them GAS GAS GAS as feel the car going. If the listen a react we are fine. If they don't we are going aroind and around. They however NEVER see it coming, but feel it miles away. That is reason I don't have students trail brake. They can feel they are in trouble till way too late.
If however I get a advanced student looking to go fast I start to introduce the topic. It does take bit to break the old habit, but if the driver has the right basic skills and car feel they will learn it and be much faster and still be safe.
With novice students I ALWAYS teach slow in fast out and brake in straight line.
The reason is simple. They have alot to learn and I they have no business trail braking in any corner or trying to car max speed in. They need to learn the basic line, apex and have some semblance of car control and the ability to feel the car before they can even attempt such things.
Most folks I teach are feeling like they are learning from a fire hose even without trail braking. To intoduce that is recipe for disaster. My main goal for green first time to the track novice is to send them home in car as pretty as when it arrived. I want o keep them safe on the track for themselves, others and of course myself.
A driver really needs to understand the basics first then move to advanced tecniques. Really a driver cannot learn to trail brake unless they have sound car control skills. One fast move in trail braking can send the car flying to the weeds. So the driver must have the skills to be able to detect a situation AND have the ability to correct it. Without those skills a trail braking driver is one getting close to his next spin.
I have had students who trail brake when novices. I try to keep them from doing it. Most of time I can stop, but a couple times they continue and continue until I feverish telling them GAS GAS GAS as feel the car going. If the listen a react we are fine. If they don't we are going aroind and around. They however NEVER see it coming, but feel it miles away. That is reason I don't have students trail brake. They can feel they are in trouble till way too late.
If however I get a advanced student looking to go fast I start to introduce the topic. It does take bit to break the old habit, but if the driver has the right basic skills and car feel they will learn it and be much faster and still be safe.
