Z-man

AMEN!

You don't need a dedicated track car to learn to drive. You don't even need a FAST car to learn to drive. As a matter of fact, a slower car with less suspension will help you learn to drive better, faster. But we've been down this road before here!

If we all took this DE stuff seriously, we would all go out and buy 356C's and early 911's and really learn to drive! If you look at some of the old timers who cut their teeth on live swing axle rears and other 'archaic' equipment (by today's standards) you will see that they are able to extract the most out of just about any car they get in! Why? Cause they know how to drive!

-Z.

Carrera51

Z-man: Amen to your post as well. The "learning to drive" part seems to be getting skipped over.

M758

Color,
Firstly I am happy to hear you looking for dedicated track car. Race it or not I think you will be happier and safer with that.

Now on to my thoughts on the subject.

Firstly. Budget.

Clearly you are very successful in you business life and that allows you access to all kinds of fun toys. That said I think it often better to spend less a toy up front to leave more room for event costs maintinece costs etc. Just because you might be able to afford a GT3RSR does not mean you SHOULD buy one.


Now on to cars...
One thing you may want to consider is a G-stock 911 SC. Here is some reasoning.

1) Relability & Maintainability.
911 SC's are pretty solid race cars. In spite of how much you have to spend money can't take away lost track time from broken stuff and the need for engine rebuilds. Lest say the only weekend you have to drive is the 3rd in the month. Car brakes in first couple laps you are done for the weekend. Even if you pay you mechanic $$$ to work on saturday at the track your precious track time is gone. So having a car that works all the time and not being rebuilt all the time good.

2) Durability.
One issue with cars Like Radicals I have heard is that they don't take well to off track excursions. A run through the grass in most sports cars results in may

3) Conutry Club Racing
- Color I believe it very easy to get bored with one track all the time. Sure the first 10-15 days there are fun. Then you WILL want new challenges. Locally here we have few tracks it DOES get boring for me to drive the same one over and over again. It is nice to change -up and try out other tracks every so often. Nice thing about a G-stock 911 SC is that I believe these can be street legal still and you can then take them to PCA or other events for a change-up 2-3 times per year. Plus since the 911 is common car you can gauge your skills vs others similar cars.

4) Upgrade paths.
911 SC is great car for upgrades too. You don't have to keep it G-stock. As you get better you can mod the car for more power and less weight and make it pretty fast. It is nice car to grow with.


5) Challenge of a 911.
- No experince here, but 911 folks say the 911 is challenge to drive right, but when you do it is pure heaven. So it gives you plenty of chance to learn and drive an exciting and tough chassis.

6) Moderate power breeds skill
- Lower hp of the 911 SC means you will work less on the straights an more on things like FC and getting the corners right. Speeds are faster than 944's, but not too much.

7) Huge support network. Guys know 911's and there is vast aftermarket support network of parts & shops to do just about anything. Plus plenty of folks experience in 911 drivng to help you push the very limits of the car.

Of course if the 911 SC is too slow consider a 3.2 Carrera or 964. These car have many of the similar qualities of the 911SC -stock prepped car, but with more power and more expense. Given your desire for more speed and less concern with cost, these cars might be just right.

ColorChange

Thanks M758:

I think the 240 hp version might make more sense, at least right now. This is a bone stock motor so life should be good. Considering I have so much to learn, and I have a perfectionist nature, as long as I am learning I am not so concerned about driving the same track often. For a change of pace, I will still do an event or two elsewhere.

It looks to me like the Diasio is much stronger than the radical, and a stock rotary engine should last much longer.

Bob Rouleau

CC - My experience with local PCA trackies is that a race car is an impediment to learning. A car on slicks will allow a driver to get away with techniques that would cause an "off" in a normal car. Since you have ben honest about your skill level a car which demands excellent technique to derive the best performance usually makes for a better driver. My personal experience is that very powerful cars let us get lazy. My GT2 can pull sooooooo hard that I found myself going into corners slower than necessary. It's the old "power corrupts" maxim I think. I'd be concerned that a 1200 pound car with 350 HP would corrupt absolutely. I also wonder if a 1200 lb car with huge performance can be as safe as you 996TT. F1 cars are very safe but look at the engineering and materials used. I have no crash experience with any of the models you mentioned but I wonder about engineering, crumple zones and the like.


Rgds,

ColorChange

Bob: I agree that that often, people with powerful cars think because they are faster than people with lower powered cars, they are doing a good job. I do not. I think the best way to judge driver ability is g-sum (fc analysis) in combination with lap time. Like I said before, I drive "against" myself, using the DAS. In your example, your coming in too slow would stick out like a sore thumb on the data.

I ma looking into survivability aspects of these cars. Also, I will look at of track excursion factors/costs.

RedlineMan

Hey Color;

I don't really believe this post will be given any credence by you at all, but it is indeed offered with your stated ultimate goal in mind, and with the best of intentions.

If you TRULY want to learn to drive, get something you can access. A few in these forums have made references to the idea of having a car that FORCES you to become a fast driver by default, and that would be a car that has NO horsepower. These cars will NEVER satisfy anyone's superficial ego driven desires for a unique and titilating ride, but one CANNOT overestimate the value that they provide in terms of learning the very essence of being fast.

No driver will EVER be fast if they are taught by driving fast cars to Point and Squirt. A driver that has learned to NOT SLOW DOWN will SMOKE them!

My choices would be either a well setup NA 944 or early Boxster, a Spec Miata, or a kitted Neon. Yeh, laugh... there was a guy at the Glen last weekend that was crawling ALL OVER the Porsches with a Neon. I wanted to go out in Black and run with him myself!

If you REALLY REALLY want to learn how to drive, you will take my advice. If you want to also satisfy your desire for a cool ride, well.... you won't.

Bob M

So far, no one has mentioned driving or race schools in their recommendations as way to further driving skills. Thoughts?

Regarding dedicated track cars, lots of good suggestions posted. As a reference to the turnkey cars the UKer's seem to like, the last issue of EVO magazine included their pick of track day car of the year. The winner was the Radical SR4 and it took the honors even over the SR3 Turbo. Here is the link, if anyone is interested in reading the article. http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/med...ar04/index.php

Bob

JCP911S

M758... you are a true preacher of the 911 gospel... I have an SC track car and can absolutely vouch for everything you said. Plus a 911 will give you a clear real-time education..... your butt and wrists will have a PhD in vehicle dynamics in no time.

However, I belive all those things are opposite to CCs goals, so it is probably the least likely car he will buy... no disrespect , CC, just fact... different people want different things, and thank god for it.

Once you learn to drive a "slower" car at the limit, you can learn to drive a fast car at the limit, but I agree that starting with a fast car most people will never learn to use more than 8/10ths... but there are exceptions of course. Dave Donahue started out in PCA DE and apparently was faster than the instructors in like his second event... so there's no substitute for talent, and CC is just as likely (or unlikely) to have it as anybody else

BTW... SCs are far from slow... Jim Lewis did a 2:15 something in practice at the Glen this year in a G stock SC !!!!!! .... (man that made my little peepee shrink....)... so the potential is there if you can figure out how to find it.... but still. with all the GT3s, Turbos, Cup Cars etc, at DEs anymore, I'm getting sunburn on my left hand in the old SC from passing signals.... ( of course, if my stock doubled, and wife would get a second job.....)

Z-man

I admit that I was one of those Porsches that Neon was all over!

The Neon must've had slicks on, a turbo, or sumthin... Plus I was having coolant loss issues. Yeah: that's it: my car wasn't running optimally!

EDIT: You see, if you have a high hp/well handling car, you have less excuses to come up with when you get your butt spanked by a 'lesser' car.

-Z.

Skip Wolfe

CC what are you thinking in terms of a budget? In terms of safety, durability in off track excursions, etc., I think you would be best going with a street car based race car. You probably couldn't go wrong with a 911 based racecar, and their are different levels depending how much you wan to spend.

Another one that might catch me some flack is a C5 Z06. A good friend runs runs one of these and I have had the opportunity to turn some laps with it. Brutally fast and handles very predictably. Nice weight distribution, double wishbone suspensions gives it the balance of a 944, and combine that with wide tires and 405+ hp and you have a hell of a car. You can pick up a T1 prepped Z06 and have a lot of car for the money.

Stuttgart

[QUOTE=ColorChange]I think the best way to judge driver ability is g-sum (fc analysis) in combination with lap time. QUOTE]

If you want to learn to drive the car to its full potential, then you need to race. Sure you can compare laptimes and g's etc, but you will never reach the limits of the car until there is someone behind that is willing and ready to jump you anywhere around the course. In DE's everyone stays single file and passes on the straights, so no one can point out your mistakes.

And who are you going to compare laptimes with if you buy the D962, there aren't a whole lot of people racing those.

Greg Fishman

CC,
I can give you a lead on a very nice 993 Cup car. That would be a good car as well even for a relative beginner. Safe car with full roll cage, but quick enough to keep your interest if driven well. They are also reliable and have enough ground clearance that a simple OTE won't result in body damage.

Also would have good re-sale as it is a factory race car. Not sure the same could be said for a Diaso or similar.

Bob Rouleau

Greg - that's good advice in terms of a safe ride. At this time of year, 2004 cup cars go on sale for $100K including a power train re-build from motor sport. Still too much car for a beginner but if something happens, I am confident it is a lot safer than a tube framed lightweight.

ColorChange

OK guys, I'm listening and will re-evaluate.