The ColorChange Question
08-16-2004, 04:09 PM
#91
Instructor
Just a little anecdote to add some variables to the "g-sum" equations:
I was running at Mid-Oh and there was an instructor running in our group
giving a sudent some hot laps... She was in an older 911 Turbo, and me
in a chipped 951. I had about 50-75 hp on her. We both had A032R's same sizes.
She gave me a point-by, which I declined, knowing she was a much better
driver than I, and I wanted to learn something. I was the spectator.
We we traveling in almost identical lines - hitting the same ref's and touching
the same entry - apex - track outs, but one thing struck me very interesting.
I could see the side of her car, and she got the *Nose Point* (read: slip angle)
much sooner than I did. Admiditly she was in an 911 which is somewhat easier
to point that a 951, but I could see by following her that she was on the same
tradjectory (read: line) and the tires were experiencing the same accel (read:
g-sum) but the
"G-SUM" (dot product) "NOSE-POINT" was maximized for her. (read: maximize g-sum while driving the optimum line down the track)
Let me rephrase: She got it pointed down the track, and was on the power...
She was pulling me with a much lower HP car. Even though we were on the same line.
I know CC talks about G-Sum, and it is important, but there are many more
variables that come into play, and I'm not much of a DAS geek to know if you
can really instrument "Nose point" or "slip angle" effectively.
Let's just take the example of a carosel type turn. I could be taking the optimal
line, and maximize the grip of the available rubber. Normal turn.
Someone else could come over from the Netherlands (Rally) or Japan (Drifting) and
take the "Sideways though the turn, drift it all the way around" approach.
The g-sum that the DAS sees is the same, (the tires are working to get the car
around the corner in much different ways, but the car sees the same g-loading)
I don't think that low level DAS can distinguish between the two techniques just from the data. I may be blowing smoke, but I think you've got to instrument
shaft angles, steering angles and maybe GPS to see some of these nuances.
There's a hell of a lot more to driving that the DAS can see.
Just though it was interesting that "driving the line" is not all there is to it.
you gotta get the nose pointed down the track effectively.
Deetz.
I was running at Mid-Oh and there was an instructor running in our group
giving a sudent some hot laps... She was in an older 911 Turbo, and me
in a chipped 951. I had about 50-75 hp on her. We both had A032R's same sizes.
She gave me a point-by, which I declined, knowing she was a much better
driver than I, and I wanted to learn something. I was the spectator.
We we traveling in almost identical lines - hitting the same ref's and touching
the same entry - apex - track outs, but one thing struck me very interesting.
I could see the side of her car, and she got the *Nose Point* (read: slip angle)
much sooner than I did. Admiditly she was in an 911 which is somewhat easier
to point that a 951, but I could see by following her that she was on the same
tradjectory (read: line) and the tires were experiencing the same accel (read:
g-sum) but the
"G-SUM" (dot product) "NOSE-POINT" was maximized for her. (read: maximize g-sum while driving the optimum line down the track)
Let me rephrase: She got it pointed down the track, and was on the power...
She was pulling me with a much lower HP car. Even though we were on the same line.
I know CC talks about G-Sum, and it is important, but there are many more
variables that come into play, and I'm not much of a DAS geek to know if you
can really instrument "Nose point" or "slip angle" effectively.
Let's just take the example of a carosel type turn. I could be taking the optimal
line, and maximize the grip of the available rubber. Normal turn.
Someone else could come over from the Netherlands (Rally) or Japan (Drifting) and
take the "Sideways though the turn, drift it all the way around" approach.
The g-sum that the DAS sees is the same, (the tires are working to get the car
around the corner in much different ways, but the car sees the same g-loading)
I don't think that low level DAS can distinguish between the two techniques just from the data. I may be blowing smoke, but I think you've got to instrument
shaft angles, steering angles and maybe GPS to see some of these nuances.
There's a hell of a lot more to driving that the DAS can see.
Just though it was interesting that "driving the line" is not all there is to it.
you gotta get the nose pointed down the track effectively.
Deetz.
08-16-2004, 04:40 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by FormulaOne10
I've only shared the track with CC on two weekends and didn't notice any issues. I didn't see any spins or off track excursions.
Also, Trumper, as you were not quick enough to pick up on this, by experienced he obviously means physically having been there instead of speculating. He is not referencing level of track experience.
Also, Trumper, as you were not quick enough to pick up on this, by experienced he obviously means physically having been there instead of speculating. He is not referencing level of track experience.
Sitting in the Bleachers... qualifies CC as being " Experienced" ??? 
How long does CC have to sit in the Bleachers.... before moving up to " THE ADVANCED GROUP" ???
08-16-2004, 05:29 PM
#93
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Wow Trumper, you are a bright one...
All he means by experienced is that we were actually present and "experienced" the situation unlike others who are speculating without "experiencing" the circumstances in question. It has nothing to do with hours of experience at a track!
Can't believe that had to be explained...
"You will then have two direct experienced opinions of my level of safety, mine and his."
Can't believe that had to be explained...
08-16-2004, 05:41 PM
#94
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Originally Posted by FormulaOne10
Can't believe that had to be explained...
Ahh man, even YOU know better than that!!! Unless you have spent time in the driver's seat, you really have no idea what's happening with the car's balance when cornering! Things look a LOT FASTER from behind the steering wheel. Even when "INSTRUCTING" things move at a slower pace from the right hand seat, compared to the driver!
IMHO.... CC certainly was NOT refering you two sitting in the Bleachers watching... when he refered to you and he having an..." Experienced Opinion" !!!
08-16-2004, 06:54 PM
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I still don't see where you are going Trumper but reguardless...
I have spent time with ColorChange on the track driving alone, driving with him and riding as a passenger. I have done this in my car, his car and other owners cars and therefore I have the only informed opinion on the subject of his safety on the track (so far as the people on this post are concerned). Everybody else, including yourself are perfectly entitled to your viewpoint, but its purely speculation. I think that makes my opinion a hell of a lot more credible than what people infer from an online forum...but to each his own.
ColorChange sometimes comes across the wrong way, even though that may be hard to see here in an online forum. He is certainly not this dangerous menace of a driver at track events that many people have made him out to be through their own imagination.
Also, as for my experience - with the number of races I have watched from the bleachers to since I was a child I should be moved up to advanced even with my slow 944!
With that, I'm going to try and back out of this post because I'm genuinely not interested in much else going on here.
I have spent time with ColorChange on the track driving alone, driving with him and riding as a passenger. I have done this in my car, his car and other owners cars and therefore I have the only informed opinion on the subject of his safety on the track (so far as the people on this post are concerned). Everybody else, including yourself are perfectly entitled to your viewpoint, but its purely speculation. I think that makes my opinion a hell of a lot more credible than what people infer from an online forum...but to each his own.
ColorChange sometimes comes across the wrong way, even though that may be hard to see here in an online forum. He is certainly not this dangerous menace of a driver at track events that many people have made him out to be through their own imagination.
Also, as for my experience - with the number of races I have watched from the bleachers to since I was a child I should be moved up to advanced even with my slow 944!
With that, I'm going to try and back out of this post because I'm genuinely not interested in much else going on here.
08-16-2004, 10:41 PM
#96
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Posted by CarreraCup21
Hmmm...
It took many pages and even multiple threads, but a good lesson was learned here.
CarreraCup21 now knows why we make run group assignments based on experience. Glad there was something worthwhile here!
Jack, I think you summed it up very well. I think this has somewhat changed my mind on setting up DE run groups. I now see why experience needs to be the key focus of individual run groups in DE settings rather than lap times alone.
It took many pages and even multiple threads, but a good lesson was learned here.
CarreraCup21 now knows why we make run group assignments based on experience. Glad there was something worthwhile here!
08-16-2004, 11:07 PM
#97
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ltc:
I’m not sure of the point of your question but I will attempt an explanation. Gingerman is the safest track I know of in the country. My car will reach a top speed of 120, maybe 130 and there is only 1 wall. On the other hand, at Road America, my car will reach probably between 160 and 170 and there is plenty of Armco. All racetracks have a certain danger level, some are much more dangerous than others. Is that what you’re after?
Chris W:
OK, I am still waiting for how you analyze a drivers performance, at a level of detail beyond segment times. Please be as complicated and detailed as you can.
PT:
DAS does not have to be post processing oriented and can be real time. For example, I am looking at displaying an alarm for g sum (series of LED’s) so that you will know exactly where you are on the fc during braking and turns. But, I generally agree with your point b. I also agree a good instructor can help one learn quickly.
Robmug:
I agree that learning on a lesser car is much easier. The car’s time base is much slower, mistakes aren’t as magnified (0.1 sec brake point miss at 170 vs 130), etc.
I learned to ski through instruction (my brother was a ski/raving instructor), technical understanding, physical training, and practice on the hill. I started ski jumping when I was 4. And yes, I had coaches all the way through. The DAS can be quite a good coach. Not the only one, but an extremely valuable addition.
Mitch236:
As F1 says, g forces and vectors are the exact same thing when analyzing a line. The forces are exactly what keeps the car on a given line.
F1:
Thanks and you’re right.
Deetz:
It is impossible to analyze g-sum accurately with you eye, much less when following someone. Sorry. Also, they different drivers would not see the same g-sum, not even close. DAS can absolutely distinguish between the two techniques quite easily.
I’m not sure of the point of your question but I will attempt an explanation. Gingerman is the safest track I know of in the country. My car will reach a top speed of 120, maybe 130 and there is only 1 wall. On the other hand, at Road America, my car will reach probably between 160 and 170 and there is plenty of Armco. All racetracks have a certain danger level, some are much more dangerous than others. Is that what you’re after?
Chris W:
OK, I am still waiting for how you analyze a drivers performance, at a level of detail beyond segment times. Please be as complicated and detailed as you can.
PT:
DAS does not have to be post processing oriented and can be real time. For example, I am looking at displaying an alarm for g sum (series of LED’s) so that you will know exactly where you are on the fc during braking and turns. But, I generally agree with your point b. I also agree a good instructor can help one learn quickly.
Robmug:
I agree that learning on a lesser car is much easier. The car’s time base is much slower, mistakes aren’t as magnified (0.1 sec brake point miss at 170 vs 130), etc.
I learned to ski through instruction (my brother was a ski/raving instructor), technical understanding, physical training, and practice on the hill. I started ski jumping when I was 4. And yes, I had coaches all the way through. The DAS can be quite a good coach. Not the only one, but an extremely valuable addition.
Mitch236:
As F1 says, g forces and vectors are the exact same thing when analyzing a line. The forces are exactly what keeps the car on a given line.
F1:
Thanks and you’re right.
Deetz:
It is impossible to analyze g-sum accurately with you eye, much less when following someone. Sorry. Also, they different drivers would not see the same g-sum, not even close. DAS can absolutely distinguish between the two techniques quite easily.
08-16-2004, 11:13 PM
#98
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Thanks again F1 and I don't blame you for bailing. Some people here are quite amazing.
Let me try to be clear. The two most qualified people that can discuss my driving safety are myself (let's disregard that for potential bias) and F1. He has direct experience with me on the track. Therefore, he posses superior data to akk those low character people who would attack someone with something like that without any direct (or first hand) experience.
Let me try to be clear. The two most qualified people that can discuss my driving safety are myself (let's disregard that for potential bias) and F1. He has direct experience with me on the track. Therefore, he posses superior data to akk those low character people who would attack someone with something like that without any direct (or first hand) experience.
08-16-2004, 11:18 PM
#99
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Posted by CarreraCup21
Hmmm...
It took many pages and even multiple threads, but a good lesson was learned here.
CarreraCup21 now knows why we make run group assignments based on experience. Glad there was something worthwhile here!
Hmmm...
It took many pages and even multiple threads, but a good lesson was learned here.
CarreraCup21 now knows why we make run group assignments based on experience. Glad there was something worthwhile here!
Viper Days uses a combination method for organizing their run groups. CarreraCup21 was at VIR last month with them. In fact, we were in the same group.Viper Days first breaks you up based on experience, just like most clubs do. Then after your 1st run session, they grid you within your group, based on your track time. The fastest car is gridded 1st and so forth. This works well as it mininizes passing and most people have an open track!
For High Powered cars, this method seems to work really well. I have been to Viper Days at VIR the past two years, and was pleased with this grid line-up !
08-16-2004, 11:25 PM
#100
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Robmug:
I agree that learning on a lesser car is much easier. The car’s time base is much slower, mistakes aren’t as magnified (0.1 sec brake point miss at 170 vs 130), etc.
I agree that learning on a lesser car is much easier. The car’s time base is much slower, mistakes aren’t as magnified (0.1 sec brake point miss at 170 vs 130), etc.
08-16-2004, 11:31 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Let me try to be clear. The two most qualified people that can discuss my driving safety are myself (let's disregard that for potential bias) and F1. He has direct experience with me on the track.
Let me try to be clear. You are an inexperienced driver who has no fear of pushing a 3500 lb missile arount a track at well over 150 MPH. It is fair to say that this is unsafe, to you and to those in front of you. I can't imagine what I would have done after 10 track days with your car.
Just wondering if you have any examples in your data sets of you making a great save at 130MPH follwing a nice death wiggle?
You have also comment that a 996TT is perhaps not easy to drive quickly. Rest assured that it is very easy to drive quickly, too easy perhaps.
Please be careful and listen to everyone telling you to slow down.
08-17-2004, 01:43 AM
#102
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For those who have never run with RSRRacer, he is about the best 996TT driver I have ever seen. I saw him at VIR running astounding times like 2:02's if I remember. CC you would do well to take his advice !!
08-17-2004, 02:35 AM
#103
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
ltc:
Chris W:
OK, I am still waiting for how you analyze a drivers performance, at a level of detail beyond segment times. Please be as complicated and detailed as you can.
Chris W:
OK, I am still waiting for how you analyze a drivers performance, at a level of detail beyond segment times. Please be as complicated and detailed as you can.
CC, I am not sure my experience will help you directly as my time was spent working for drivers that are (supposed to be
) at the top of their game, ie: a 'professional'. As a team, the limited session time is spent quickly optimizing the car/driver combination for that track, that day. I will give you that data analysis is the best scientific resource used to confirm driver debrief's and comments. The driver and only the driver know's how the car feels around the circuit. Data can and often will back up what aspect of the chassis is not optimal, but again, lap time, tire temps and driver feedback IS the result.
I will give an example. First practice session usually goes like this.
9am:Track green, car leaves for one lap, back in pit, shut off engine.
9:03am Remove engine cover and sidepod, crew performs leak check. Everything ok?
9:05am Bodywork back on, car leaves for maybe 4 or 5 laps to get a 'read' on chassis set-up.
9:12am Car in, engine cover off, front shock cover off waiting for quick driver to engineer feedback. Tire temps taken (RR tire circumference measured, ovals only), fuel is added to a set level for consistent chassis weight every outing. Tire temp results and lap time print out given to engineer for him to QUICKLY bark out what changes to be made.
9:16am Car buttoned back up, sent out to repeat this routine over and over until either red or checker flag...
All of this to happen within a few minutes as green flag session time is GOLDEN. No chassis data is looked at until between sessions when there is time to analyze what is collected. In a nut shell, my point is the race engineer relies only on a few key bits of information. This also is dependant on driver performance and results. Back of the grid teams generally have to work harder than teams often at the front.
Back to the topic...Sorry to break it down like that, but not sure how else to explain to you that what you are attempting to do with data is different than what we (as a team) do with data.
Even at the 'pro' level of driving, driver feedback of what he FEELS in the car is still paramount and a huge part of the chemistry that makes him (or her) successful.
How do race fans and team owners analyze driver preformance? Race results, period.
Dont get me wrong, DAS in a DE setting is awesome. I have done a little myself, just for the heck of it (and I have a good buddy at Motec).. This data didnt help me much as I rely heavily on instructor feedback.
Not sure if this answers your question?
08-17-2004, 04:42 AM
#104
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"Not sure if this answers your question?
Well, of course it doesn't, Chris, you didn't tell him what he wanted to hear--Oh, ye of low character...
Well, of course it doesn't, Chris, you didn't tell him what he wanted to hear--Oh, ye of low character...
08-17-2004, 09:00 AM
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I think we need to take a step back and look at the situation logically. I don't think CC is dangerous. All of us pushes the limit. That's how we improve. Since Tim hasn't had an off yet, I think that says he keeps his head while on the track, so let's stop bringing his skills into question. Unless you have personally driven with him, you are not able to give an accurate assessment. Let it go.
Now about the real point of this thread, the use of DAS. This is where most of us have a problem with Tim's theories. I can see where DAS would be valuable for tuning the suspension and car, I think segment timing is a better tool for tuning the driver. I love all the tech stuff and one day will probably install DAS but for now, I measure my advances by timing.
Now about the real point of this thread, the use of DAS. This is where most of us have a problem with Tim's theories. I can see where DAS would be valuable for tuning the suspension and car, I think segment timing is a better tool for tuning the driver. I love all the tech stuff and one day will probably install DAS but for now, I measure my advances by timing.