ColorChange

Anir:
I agree with your assessment of engineers usually striving to make things better. I am obsessed with Kaizen, a Japanese word for continuous improvement, both for me personally and my business. I disagree with your assessment of my use of the DAS as being inappropriate or inefficient, and don’t know how you can reach that conclusion without knowing me. I would think that the level that I can drive my new car with such little experience would seem to indicate that my method is working fairly well, at least so far.

Tom77
How do you reach your conclusions about me personally when you don’t know me? The only person on this board that knows me personally is F1ten. Ask him about me. And you are largely wrong. Much of ski jumping is mental preparation. You are moving so fast at the takeoff (over 60 mph) that your senses operate on a stream of consciousness basis, and you need to “feel” what is happening and what to do. To do this there are usually three approaches, 1. physical preparation (plyometrics, etc.) trying to build muscle memory, 2. visualization, and technical understanding (again muscle memory), and 3, on hill experience. In that order. I am following a somewhat similar approach (described earlier) to driving and so far I think it is working well. Not everyone disagrees, Chris agrees, F1ten agrees, some others at least partially agree, ohhh … I almost forgot, EVERY race car engineer I have met/know of, every vehicle dynamics professor, and the bulk of the literature aggress too. I’m wrong …, or you and your confused buddies are wrong. Which is more likely? And I hope you don’t take this as a flame, just a difference of opinion.

Chris W:
Well then, why did you say what a stopwatch instead of segment time from the DAS? I didn’t interpret it as a figurative statement that is extremely likely to decieve. I take things very literally. Please still respond to my request to show us your method of driver analysis.

Let me point out something you I am sure you know if you are indeed an expert. If the segment you are comparing is quicker, there can be two causes, either the driver had a higher g-sum or he took a better line. The DAS will help identify which is the answer, segment times do not. Please discuss.

Joey and Tom:
You could be right about being careful about a wreck. I believe I am extremely careful. Now, let me ask you a question. Why is Gingerman the only track you have seen me drive my cars at? I know Joey knows the answer as he has driven the track. My second point is show me in my driving where I am near going off the track, much less going off the track with speed.

Jack:
Reasonable post about backing off. My reply is similar to that directly above. I drive very safe tracks and I don’t push past the point where I am wildly out of control. When I get better, I will drive more dangerous tracks.

RSR:
Maybe not the best way, but an excellent way and I agree. Thanks Jack. And let me Add, Chris is at the top of the list for showing me how to do it.

Mark:
Come on. I think he said he used a stopwatch to specifically discount the value of the DAS approach. This is a purposeful deception if true … what I call a lie.

Anir:
I understand your situation and I am sorry for your misfortune. Glad you’re OK. I will point out a couple of things. 1. Did you notice I said I’m not ready for RA yet. 2. Did you have a DAS? (that was a slight attempt at humor) I admire your courage to post your accident. I will/would do the same if I am ever in your shoes.

Chris:
Reading the above explains why I got ticked off. Please explain how you or your engineers measure driver performance. If your absolutely incorrect use the word stopwatch was completely unintended, then I offer you my apology. I would sincerely like to know more of what you did in your champ car days.

Jack:
I think that I like you as you seem like a decent guy, but you are making pretty big leaps about me and my personality without knowing me. Quite frankly, you’re out of line. Your assumption of courage, determination is dead wrong, focus is dead on. I will never be in the same universe as Schumi. He is a genius and in my view, the best driver in the history of motorsport.

Is a Lambo easy to drive? I seriously doubt you know the answer to that question first hand. The E55 is easy to drive because it plows like an ice cream truck. The tt is not particularly easy to drive well in my opinion, but maybe I’m wrong on that one. Maybe I do drive like a newbie, as I don’t have a wealth of data to dispute your assertion, but I do disagree.

I do not have hostility to a good instructor. I really don’t. But, if the instructor is going to tell me not to trail brake because it’s not slow in fast out and that is the fastest way, I object. I’m not against everyone. I can’t give you a percentage because I don’t have enough experience with different instructors to asses them as a group.

Jack, I was replying to your post as I was writing but then I stopped and skipped to the end. How the hell can you infer from my posts how I handle my car on the track with other cars around? You are way out of line and owe me both a retraction and an apology.

To my knowledge, the only person here who has been on the track with me at the same time is F1ten. Please comment on whether I am safe out there or not. You will then have two direct experienced opinions of my level of safety, mine and his. You have guessing from a forum. Nice hatchet job.

Robert Henriksen

Color, the only instrumentation you need to find the source of the hatch job is a mirror.

ltc

CC, what would be some of the dangerous tracks?
I only ask as I don't recall anyone referring to a track as dangerous.

chris walrod

CC, yes, like I mentioned before, my wording of 'stopwatch' was a figurative statement, or racing slang, if you will. Life's too short to take things too literally, as I often have to tell myself.

As you know, lap times, segment times, peak mid-corner speeds etc. arrive from various sources throughout a race weekend. The only time that stands is race control's timing and scoring, accurate or not. As an example, last weekend at Road America, drivers were using real estate on the other side of T1's curbing and the left side mounted transponders were not picking up and many drivers missed laps during first practice. These teams offered their data to use as lap time....no way jose. The ONLY times that matter are that of official timing and scoring.. (sorry for the topic detour)

At the end of the day, there are SO many possible reasons why a driver had a faster lap, or segment time vs. the previous lap(s). Not quite as simple as two possibilities. Since aero cars are aero sensitive, weather or air density alone can vary L/D (lift over drag) from lap to lap even.. This is what makes that question difficult to put one's finger on..

More later, I have had a long day..

DAR951

No? You seem to have it nailed pretty well in this instance... Also with regard to what you see in the vid and the potential threat to others.

And he wants an appology?! Just confirmation of your analysis of the data...


BTW: ColorChange and Ghetto Racer, Twins separated at birth? Same guy after a couple of English grammar lessons? You be the judge:

Z-man

If I may put in my $0.42:

Colorchange: Step away from the DAS. Repeat after me: "I will not look at maximizing my g-sum along the optimal line."

I think what you are trying to accomplish and what you are actually doing are two separate things. Allow me to explain: SIMPLY put: You say you want to become a good driver. However, I believe what you really want is to be a fast driver. The difference between the two is night and day. The fact that you opted for a 996TT vs. a 996 or a Boxster kinda proves my point! You don't need ultimate power to learn how to drive!

I have just 'graduated' into the Black run group this year. I hustle my very stock 944S2 around the track to the best of my ability. I get passed a lot - but that's not because I don't know how to drive - it's more because of my car's limitations. (Ok, some of it has to do with my inability to drive Alright - a LOT of it has to do with my inability to drive! ) Regardless, I AVERAGE three instructors PER EVENT! Everytime I go out with an insturtor, I learn tons! I may not be the fastest driver out there in my run group, but that is NOT a reflection of my ability! BTW: the reverse is also true: a guy running the fastest times and passing everyone in his GT-2 or cup car may be the worst driver out there! Horsepower has a wonderful way of hiding one's inability to drive!

If you and I were on the same track you would invariably pass my 944S2 in your 996TT. That doesn't mean that you're a better driver than I am!

Based on your video, your lines through a lot of those corners are inconsistent to say the least! Unfortunately, your DAS system can't really show you this as effectively as an instructor sitting next to you that's telling you "Get closer, Closer, CLOSER!" If you are trying to learn as quickly as possible, you are neglecting the best feedback available - the immediate feedback an instructor gives!

You stated in your last post that you are obessed with "Kaizen" the Japanese word for continuous improvement. But doesn't that concept involve using every means at your disposal to improve yourself? Doesn't Kaizen also involve being humble about your abilities, and not afraid to admit you need the advise of others? This humble attitude is severely lacking in your quest, my friend, and that is what is really limiting your ability to learn and move up.

So while it is not feasible for your to sell your 996TT and buy a 'lesser' car to learn on, I do suggest that you leave your DAS, your pyrometer, and most importantly, your EGO at home. Bring your car, a tire pressure guage, and a desire to learn. Trust me, your progress will be notably quicker.

-Zoltan.

joey bagadonuts

I agree, there were no off's in your video. But as demonstrated by Anir, Tom and Jack, past performance is not always the best indicator of future events.

PT

Having watched this thread for a while, I'll try to be constructive...

Two very important points that probably have not be explicitly spelled out for CC:
a) DAS is a POST PROCESSING device - you can't analyse the complex in real time (or god bless you)
b) When you are driving in real time, no DAS (that I know of) can TELL you what the car is doing, you need to know what the car is telling you & that takes experience.

So, while I agreed DAS can be a very good tool, you need to master b) above before you can initiate all the right inputs at the right time. Yes, the DAS can tell you "look, you should delay entry to corner X by exactly 200ms and increase your entry speed by 3mph", how do you recreate exactly what you did LAST time at the same corner?

Everyone can learn differently. Sure, you can get there someday (hopefully), but an instructor can bootstrap you by helping you in real time to initiate inputs & interpret outputs from the car. Now, if there's a DAS that can drive the car completely for you then you probably don't need an instructor

robmug

Just scanned through this thread and whilst I haven't read all the posts (hahaha) I do have a grasp of what this thread is about.

Z-man's post above makes a lot of sense. My comments:

If anything, it will be easier to learn in a lesser car (try karting, try an E30 M3) (by lesser, I mean a good handling car, but where the action happens at a lower speed - much easier to learn to drift a car at 30mph than at 130mph)
In skiing, did you learn how to ski downhill by looking at a stopwatch?
How did you (colourChange) learn to ski?
Have you noticed that ALL competitors at the Olympics (topical eh?) ALL have coaches?
I think, as Z-man says, better is different to faster.

MRW

I can't believe the amount of time I've wasted on this thread.

A blind man on a galloping horse moving at high speed past this entire discussion could tell you with absolute certainty that the answer is simple- some people have more money than common sense (I was tempted to say brains, but there is evidence of brain activity in CC's posts, however misguided he may be), and those people are almost always front and center with their opinions, to the general amusement of people who actually know from whence they speak.

The great, abiding pleasure of Rennlist is the tolerance for discusssion, no matter how inane, and I commend all those with the patience to try to convince this poor fellow to shut up and listen. Nice try, however futile it may have been.

I return now to my life, devoid of all data save that of my personal experience and that of the people who, over time, have attempted to be helpful to me, and for whose help I am very grateful.

mitch236

Phew! What a long thread. I will state why the above statement is wrong and hopefully CC will think before he posts a reply.

There is one variable that is more important than g-sum and that is force vector direction, and don't say that is the same as the correct line because the two are distinct. Then line is the path the car takes and the force vector direction is the direction the g-sum is pointing.

FormulaOne10

Ok, I'll bite ColorChange...but I reluctantly post on this already out of control thread.

I have driven with Colorchange and I have no reason to think he is an unsafe driver. In fact I would put him at the level of some of the safest drivers I have driven with. This means that he gives space to other drivers, is quick to act in problematic driving situations (I was the problem...we'll just leave it at that) , is extremely aware of his surroundings and is somebody I can trust to share the track with. I'll admit that he is aggressive, but so am I and so are many people out there. I have yet to feel that my safety has been jeopardized by his actions and neither has anybody else I know that shared the track with him. Aggressive does not mean unsafe.

Somehow, people have inferred the level of judgement and safety that ColorChange drives with by reading posts on a forum! That may be one of the most insane correlations I have ever seen. I don't see anything inherently unsafe in his video either. Sure the driving could use a little work, but so could most everybody elses on this board. If you disagree with his methods then fine, but this psychology BS is absolutely off the wall.

Mitch, g's are force vectors. Additionally, if I take a point in time in a car along a turn, the instantaneous force vector (which is a vector sum of g loading in the lat and long directions) will tell me where my car is accelerating (this is where you are correct) whereas the vectors in the time leading up to that point will define the path that has already been driven through. You can work backwards from accelerations/force vectors to determine lines taken. Its obvoiusly quite a bit more complicated to actually measure this in a racecar where those accels are constantly changing. Still, the idea is what matters.

trumperZ06

I have no idea how much "experience" F1ten has in racing or driving a car at D E or Auto-cross events.

CC, you on the other hand, have DAMN little track time!

The equivalent of ~ 3 weekends ( six days) attending D E EVENTS....

does NOT qualify you as "EXPERIENCED" !

In fact, the clubs I work with would have you labeled as a novice! Your methods of learning make you unsafe to other students on the track, and an Instructor's nightmare!!!

NetManiac

Chris W. didn't mention this, and can certainly disagree with me if I am wrong. But how I read his post is that they gain the most valuable information from inputs other than DAS. So for the sake of argument lets say at the end of the day they learned 80% of their newfound knowledge from a stopwatch, pyrometer, and driver debriefing and 20% of their newfound knowledge from DAS. He even admits in his post the data [from the DAS] is important. But I suspect that if the team had to eliminate either DAS or inputs from a stopwatch, pyrometer, and driver debriefing, Chris' team manager would choose DAS. But that's just a guess.

It appears to me ColorChange, that you have misinterpreted what Chris W. said, just like you feel everyone has misinterpreted what you are saying.

I'm a relative newbie, and have been told by instructors and more experienced drivers that I am better than average (i.e. picking up this performance driving thing pretty quickly) with only 16-18 DE/TT days, 4 PCA races in two weekends, and a POC rookie card. So take the following for what it's worth.

I do NOT think I have all the answers and continuously seek the advice of instructors and more experienced drivers. I am also hoping to add DAS to my car before year-end. So I do not think DAS is evil. It will be a fun and hopefully not to distracting tool that will help me fine tune my line and inputs. But it will not replace the input I get from instructors or other drivers.

I think one of the key lessons I have learned in regards to instructors is that if I stick with the same club (or group) I will learn which instructors are suited for me and which are not (and visa-versa). If you don't like the instructors in the club you are in now, maybe trying a different club will help. I almost always got and instructor who was well in advance of my skill level and would cater the lesson to my individual needs as a driver. If I didn't the club was flexible enough that I could seek advice and instruction from another instructor.

Anyway, just I thought I would offer my thoughts and opinions however meaningless they may be.

FormulaOne10

I've only shared the track with CC on two weekends and didn't notice any issues. I didn't see any spins or off track excursions.

Also, Trumper, as you were not quick enough to pick up on this, by experienced he obviously means physically having been there instead of speculating. He is not referencing level of track experience.