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The ColorChange Question

 
Old 08-15-2004, 12:48 PM
  #46  
Robert Henriksen
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Originally Posted by Tom 77
I know CC is going to flame me and I wont bother to reply.
I didn't realize it but I had once before asked him to try and listen, not gonna happen..
He is more interested in all the attention he has generated on himself than improving anything about himself. The way I see it is there is going to be a wreck or he will simply give up the sport. I can't believe that anyone who claims to be competative in, and I quote " I am an excellent downhill skier/racer (former ski jumper)" , can actually do this with widgets and gadjets, I'm sure that jumping of a ramp is learned by JUMPING off the ramp. He believes everyone around him is incompetent and he knows best. Give me a break!
I know -- I keep thinking that JohnD has this icon on the short list of emoticons for a reason:

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Old 08-15-2004, 01:00 PM
  #47  
chris walrod
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Chris W, you are either fanatically stupid or a liar. Considering you can recreate a superiorly accurate stopwatch for anywhere on the track with a DAS, your claim of using one is bogus ů at best. Sorry.
No sheit ColorChange, all timing provided by CART (now ChampCar) timing and scoring. I thought you would get it that 'stopwatch' was a figurative statement. Thanks for calling me a liar and thinking I am stupid. And you were acting so mature for the longest time

BTW, we are selling two Pi Sigma2 systems, with wheel dash if you'd like to step up to the big time email me at [email protected] if interested...
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Old 08-15-2004, 01:04 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Tom 77
The way I see it is there is going to be a wreck
I'm inclined to agree. CC, I took a good look at your video and while I can see that you're at the limit virtually the entire time (something most newbies cannot do), your line choice could use some improvement. I think we've covered this ground and there's no disagreement, correct?

The danger is that your habit of early apexing, while not as big an issue at Gingerman, can put you into the wall or rolling through the pea gravel at a high-speed track like Road America. As you can see in T1, T6 and T11 of your video, the wheel stays in the same position from turn in to track out--you should be unwinding immediately after apexing. Exit speed aside, if you apply this same approach and try to max your g-sum through The Kink, Canada Corner or any other turn with limited runoff room, you dramatically increase the likelihood of an incident.

My point is that this is a dangerous sport and if you're truly interested in minimizing some of the inherent risks, you should make learning the correct line your next priority.
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Old 08-15-2004, 01:37 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by chris walrod
No sheit ColorChange, all timing provided by CART (now ChampCar) timing and scoring. I thought you would get it that 'stopwatch' was a figurative statement. Thanks for calling me a liar and thinking I am stupid. And you were acting so mature for the longest time

BTW, we are selling two Pi Sigma2 systems, with wheel dash if you'd like to step up to the big time email me at [email protected] if interested...
I think that CC's response to Chris W is THE most telling thing about CC's personality and attitude. For those that might not know some of the details and history:

Chris works for Swift Engineering. Swift is a little hack operations be happens to build the current Formula Atlantic cars. Their little Pi Sigma 2 systems are no match for CC's DAS, but the try to muddle through as best they can.

They lack CC's vast financial resources to put Stoptechs on their cars. I think they wasted all their money on a wind tunnel instead.

I don't think I have been on the track with Chris, so I have no idea what his drving level is (but that doesn't matter anyway according to CC) but I do know this. I use DAS quite a bit - have been using it for about 4 years and three different systems - I am far from an expert. There are only a few people I know with expertise in this topic and I seek out their advice. For me, when Chris W says something about DAS or data, I listen carefully.

On top of that, Chris W is one of the nicest guys on Rennlist - always polite and helpful. A real gentleman.

And with all that, he gets that particular response from CC with a genuinely helpful post.

Good effort Jack to give CC yet another chance. Too bad it didn't do any good. As for Chris C, this thread, and especially CC's response to Chris W should really clarify why he gets the treatment he does on Rennlist.
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:16 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
I think they wasted all their money on a wind tunnel instead.
Good one!
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:17 PM
  #51  
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It seems like we're going around in circles here, and have been for the past six months or so. There has been some useful info and different perspectives, so I'll be the first to admit that I've learned a few things. Meanwhile, regarding rehashing, I'll copy someone else who referenced an earlier post.
I was probably not the first to predict a crash, but I did contribute the following on 7/23:

"- it sounds like you're running some fast times at gingerman (compared to recent PCA club races) and you might be headed for a crash so please be careful. I crashed myself, as have many intermediate drivers who drive at the limit."

At the top of page two of this thread, I brought up the unliklihood of getting very good at golf or skiing with limited practice and suggested that the sme applies to road racing. I hinted that someone who only goes out 2-3x/year might want to re-evaluate their goals, to which CC responded somewhat enigmatically. (I think that he thought that I was suggesting that he spend more time on the track, but I was really suggesting that he "back it down a bit", both goals and driving at the limit).

So - at the risk of getting flamed, I'll be more direct:
CC - if you are really a daddy first, and concerned about your family, why don't you reconsider your style of driving at the limit? You may also want to reconsider your goals, until you have an opportunity to spend more time consistently on track. Please do not gfeel compelled to answer, as you are free to make your own decisions and I really have no business passing out unsolicited advice. Like I said before - good luck...
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:20 PM
  #52  
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Default Best way to use data acquision

ColorChange:

The best way for you to use your data logger is to let an experienced driver push your car for a few laps. Then aspire to obtain the data sets established by him/her.

By comparing "you" to "you minus yesterday" isnt terribly useful until "you" are more consistent than "you" currently are.

I tried to use mention "you" as much as possible to hold your attention.
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:25 PM
  #53  
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RSR - not meaning to speak for/defend CC, but -
he has stated that as a goal for some time, even to the point of narrowing down the candidates...
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:39 PM
  #54  
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Chris W. If I overrreacted, please prove me wrong. You proclaim yourelf as a DAS expert. Please prove it. Present some data and show how you do it. Specifically, show me (or tell me) how you analyze driver performance as this is our main topic. If you do so reasonably and rationally, I will apologize, unless of course you use g-sum like I have been advocating and you did not support my approach.

I'll respond to the rest later.
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:50 PM
  #55  
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Of course, Chris, CC reserves the exclusive right to call you "fanatically stupid or a liar", despite the rational and measured response you originally provided to him. Very nice.

In case anyone forgot what Chris posted:

Originally Posted by chris walrod
My .02

From the angle of professional motorsports, where we used $80k DAS (Pi Sigma), 24 channels of CAN based data, laser ride height, aero pressure tapping, you name it real time telemetry and data logging, a few talented data geeks and race engineers with numerous custom math channels, at the end of the day, the most valuable info was given to us via stopwatch, pyrometer, and driver debriefing! Drivers often have coach's that will watch them on track at certain corners and provide feedback on top of that.

Sure the data is important, but surely not the end-all tell-all for absolute minimum lap time and maximum performance.

FWIW, anyhow..
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:12 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Jack667
you might be headed for a crash so please be careful. I crashed myself, as have many intermediate drivers who drive at the limit
So did I. Had spent about 25 total days at various tracks. Times were dropping, confidence was rising, right before I doofed and did not let the steering wheel unwind as I was tracking out in the Kink at Road America. Back end came around. Eleven months and $48,000 worth of car repair later, I have a newfound respect for the dangers of intermediate DE experience. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

Now, I know a bunch of guys who have never had a serious off (e.g. Greg Fishman, Jerry Wilson), but they uniformly exhibit a consistent healthy respect for the dangers and humility about their own limits.



You may notice that I run a lot of negative camber and toe out on my right front. It helps me get through the corners faster, and makes my Dim Sum taste better.

Last edited by Anir; 08-15-2004 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:31 PM
  #57  
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Anir, thanks for sharing that as it serves us all a good reminder of what could happen to any of us. As someone who is about at that level and maybe just a bit too over-confident, I was wondering if there were any other symptoms of an impending "serious off". I mean were having more and more small offs before the big one or was it like "wham" it just came out of nowhere ? Thanks.

This might also be a good topic for another thread, that is : "serious offs" as opposed to little offs. Is there a difference ?
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:36 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Anir
You may notice that I run a lot of negative camber and toe out on my right front. It helps me get through the corners faster, and makes my Dim Sum taste better.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:46 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by carreracup21
I was wondering if there were any other symptoms of an impending "serious off". I mean were having more and more small offs before the big one or was it like "wham" it just came out of nowhere ?
I had actually never been off track in my 993 before (once took a benign slow spin into the grass in a Skippy car at VIR), but I'm sure the warning signs were there - even if I didn't see them coming. Fishman had warned me about unwinding sooner on several occasions.

My times had dropped from the low 2:40's to about 2:38 just before I ate it. I kept thinking about having read that inexperienced drivers tend to take slow corners too fast, and fast corners too slow. So, every time I had gone through the Kink previously, I had a few feet to spare on the trackout. I made a conscious decision to push a bit harder through that corner, and paid the price when I choked up on the wheel.

Interestingly, I saw the video of the incident in the control tower later that day, and I had plenty of room to track out still. I just chickened out and tightened up.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:49 PM
  #60  
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If it's okay with you, Anir, I'd like to print some copies of the picture you posted along w. your description of what happened. Nagging my students not to pinch the car at the exit hasn't been very effective at changing their behavior; I'd like to try using the above as a teaching aid.
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