The ColorChange Question
08-18-2004, 03:40 AM
#136
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
whew, read all 9 pages.
i can't haiku like DJ, but
"..The IR sensors are mounted in the car and measure tire surface ... This is exactly what the F1 and other high end racing teams do...."
i don't know if above is true or not, but the point is that you are NOT any where near F1 caliber, so please don't compared what technique or equipment they use and what you use....
i race bicycles, my bike stable is greater and far more expensive and exotic than that of lance armstrong. but i sure can't ride like him....
i can't haiku like DJ, but
"..The IR sensors are mounted in the car and measure tire surface ... This is exactly what the F1 and other high end racing teams do...."
i don't know if above is true or not, but the point is that you are NOT any where near F1 caliber, so please don't compared what technique or equipment they use and what you use....
i race bicycles, my bike stable is greater and far more expensive and exotic than that of lance armstrong. but i sure can't ride like him....
08-18-2004, 10:32 AM
#137
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris is right : get the Race Car Vehicle Dynamics book written by Milliken. For an engineer, it should be run reading. But it is a resource that I know locally, is on the desk of every NASCAR team.
Brian
Brian
08-18-2004, 02:43 PM
#138
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris W: OK, so I understand you did not mean to imply that DAS is not a critical tool for all top race teams, and that you are not qualified in data analysis to discuss the basics. I accept this and will then apologize for my portion of the wrong interpretation of your post.
08-18-2004, 02:46 PM
#139
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, I not only own the Miliken text, I have read it. Everything I am saying here with regard to driver performance adn going fast comes drieclty form it. What on earth have I said that could possibly make you think I need to read Miliken?
08-18-2004, 02:52 PM
#140
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Encinitas, CA
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chris walrod
... ColorChange and his quest to prove conventional wisdom wrong 
08-18-2004, 02:53 PM
#141
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris is right : get the Race Car Vehicle Dynamics book written by Milliken. For an engineer, it should be run reading. But it is a resource that I know locally, is on the desk of every NASCAR team.
Brian
08-18-2004, 05:07 PM
#142
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ColorChange
What on earth have I said that could possibly make you think I need to read Miliken?
08-18-2004, 05:45 PM
#143
Race Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by NetManiac
I admit I haven't really kept up with all the threads and I don't have the time to go back and read them. So what is the conventional wisdom that ColorChange it trying to prove wrong?
To summarize many pages of tedious reading:
ColorChange is a novice driver with one DE event in his current car who believes he can participate safely in track events by teaching himself to drive using a data-acquisition system instead of in-car instruction. When anyone questions the wisdom of this, he tries to turn the discussion to narrowly-defined vehicle dynamics issues -- or he simply insults the person questioning him.
He brings what many Rennlisters believe is a staggeringly simplistic focus to the project of tracking a car. He seems unable to comprehend how this might make him less safe, when sharing a track with others.
On the positive side, I'd say ColorChange will probably outgrow a lot of his opinions, as he participates in more track events. I don't think we need to crucify the guy for the sin of being a beginner, here. It's just that he gets so adamant about his opinions...
I wrote a longer summary at the bottom of page 5 of the thread.
08-18-2004, 06:27 PM
#144
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 2,956
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was it Thomas Jefferson who said, 'I apologize for writing such a long letter - as I did not have time to write a short one'?
I've always like that quote.
I've always like that quote.
08-18-2004, 07:12 PM
#145
Lifetime Rennlist Member
It was interesting of Jack to try to give ColorChange, Tim Homola or whatever he wants to be called yet another chance here. Tim has proven to me that he is simply irrelevant to this board. He is amusing but he neither contributes anything nor appears to learn anything.
I don’t know about his on-track attitude or his internal psychology, but I know what I see:
1) He is rude and insulting – look especially at his attacks on Chris W but also anyone who disagrees with him.
2) He is a whiny as a two year old – look at the Adios thread he started some months ago.
3) He is sloppy and cuts corners – look at his approach to DAS. Doesn’t read enough to really understand it, buys a low end system, focuses on only one of many tools and declares himself an expert. I suspect there are plenty of other cases of cutting corners in other parts of his life that we don’t see here.
He may be fun to play with (like kids play with bugs) but he is not up to the standards of the vast majority of the adults that post here.
I don’t know about his on-track attitude or his internal psychology, but I know what I see:
1) He is rude and insulting – look especially at his attacks on Chris W but also anyone who disagrees with him.
2) He is a whiny as a two year old – look at the Adios thread he started some months ago.
3) He is sloppy and cuts corners – look at his approach to DAS. Doesn’t read enough to really understand it, buys a low end system, focuses on only one of many tools and declares himself an expert. I suspect there are plenty of other cases of cutting corners in other parts of his life that we don’t see here.
He may be fun to play with (like kids play with bugs) but he is not up to the standards of the vast majority of the adults that post here.
08-18-2004, 07:18 PM
#146
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hate to join this, but alas I cannot resist. I, like CC, am a beginner and watching his video it brings back memories (although not distant). I could see his beginner mistakes and novice skill because I am aware of my own similar shortcomings...which have been pointed out by an instructor! (and I appreciate the insight)
I would liken CC's attempts at using DAS to improve his novice skill to those of a novice golfer using video computer analysis to improve their swing. When a novice golfer takes their first few swings they are executing so many fundamental skills poorly that it is tough to know where to start instructing them. They go to a pro for a lesson and the pro doesn't put them on a machine or a video camera. The pro will say, here is how you grip it, here is how you stand, here is how you take the club away.
The pro might use a video camera/computer to analyze the player's swing down the road when they are trying to overcome a very narrow flaw, like a slice. As beginners we have so many flaws that we must establish a set of fundamental track skills. This can only occur through human instruction. DAS tools are used to maximize speed...but only when you need that last 5%. Right now, you are probably only getting about 5% total out of your car.
By the way, how many professional race car drivers do you believe have engineering degrees or taught themselves to drive using g-sums?
Oh yeah, CC would also be similar to "that guy" that shows up at the golf range with a $800 driver, $2000 irons, a putter made of platinum, 10 training aids, a swing speed meter, a laptop to do analysis, a doppler radar for weather, custom made golf shoes............and a 35 handicap that burns worms when he hits it well and throws out his back every other time! Always there for a good laugh!
I do apologize though as I think RL should be a friendly place. I think your heart is it the right place and you obviously share a passion with the rest of us. Just have a little respect for the game.
Max
I would liken CC's attempts at using DAS to improve his novice skill to those of a novice golfer using video computer analysis to improve their swing. When a novice golfer takes their first few swings they are executing so many fundamental skills poorly that it is tough to know where to start instructing them. They go to a pro for a lesson and the pro doesn't put them on a machine or a video camera. The pro will say, here is how you grip it, here is how you stand, here is how you take the club away.
The pro might use a video camera/computer to analyze the player's swing down the road when they are trying to overcome a very narrow flaw, like a slice. As beginners we have so many flaws that we must establish a set of fundamental track skills. This can only occur through human instruction. DAS tools are used to maximize speed...but only when you need that last 5%. Right now, you are probably only getting about 5% total out of your car.
By the way, how many professional race car drivers do you believe have engineering degrees or taught themselves to drive using g-sums?
Oh yeah, CC would also be similar to "that guy" that shows up at the golf range with a $800 driver, $2000 irons, a putter made of platinum, 10 training aids, a swing speed meter, a laptop to do analysis, a doppler radar for weather, custom made golf shoes............and a 35 handicap that burns worms when he hits it well and throws out his back every other time! Always there for a good laugh!
I do apologize though as I think RL should be a friendly place. I think your heart is it the right place and you obviously share a passion with the rest of us. Just have a little respect for the game.
Max
08-18-2004, 07:35 PM
#147
Race Director
Originally Posted by JackOlsen
I don't think we need to crucify the guy for the sin of being a beginner, here.
But the pompous arrogance is something entirely different.
08-18-2004, 08:22 PM
#148
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Geo
I agree.
But the pompous arrogance is something entirely different.
But the pompous arrogance is something entirely different.
If CC were better behaved, he just might be amusing! 
But... his theory's are just... so damn dangerous to other newbe's!
I'm sorry to say, anyone who labels people as LIARS, and calling them morons and other names, really just doesn't want to get along!
08-18-2004, 11:29 PM
#150
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Jack: Seeing as you did not have the character to respond to my reply to your post, I now know how to treat you: the low character camp. Congratulations, you're in good company.