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Any alternatives to ATE super blue for Drivers Ed? Castrol?

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Old 08-25-2004, 09:48 AM
  #31  
frayed
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Update: Spoke with the fella at Prospeed on the GS610 fluid. It sounds promising. I'm after a high temp fluid which I can run all season long w/o having to completely flush it. It might be the ticket.

Interesting that Evo is specing it with their kit for the 996 TT: http://www.evoms.com/porsche%20ec%20art%20test.htm

Old 08-25-2004, 10:08 AM
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CMMTracknut
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I have big reds on my 993 with Pagid Orange pads, RS integrated cooling ducts and those plastic scoop things underneath and I run Super Blue. I bleed corners each time before an event and flush once at the end of the season.
I have been reading about the GS610 stuff, anyone use it for a whole season? Anyone notice the difference between the high end fluids? The previous owner used SRF and never messed with it over the season. He did not even bleed it! I could not get any right away so I switched to Blue(always used it in other cars). If you don't get any of the mushy pedal feel with blue, should you switch?
Old 08-25-2004, 11:37 AM
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Frayed,
I ended up going w/Castrol but would give the GS610 a try if I hadn't found it on sale. It looks like there are as many opinions on brake fluid choices as there are on the perfect line around a race track... (sorry, had too). I would call the guys at Hoerr Racing Products (866) 851-7223. They sell the ATE, Castrol, GS610, et. al. and are very knowledgable about the products.

Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best. If you want to bleed every weekend, flush every weekend or flush once per year there are options out there. Personally, If I can use Castrol, flush the system once per year as opposed to bleeding a couple of times a weekend like I did w/ATE, the Castrol is well worth the money.

Good luck...
Old 08-25-2004, 11:45 AM
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Jeff,
Good tip on the HRP. They honored the price on the SRF dented cans for new undented cans when they ran out. Seem like a good company.
Old 08-25-2004, 01:25 PM
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Jeff, how's the pedal feel of the Castrol SRF on the track, after there's heat in the system? Only knock I've heard on this stuff relates to pedal feel/fluid compressibility. Could all be jpgwash though.

I'm keenly interested in getting as close to possible to a bleedless setup. Castrol and 610 appear to be top contenders.
Old 08-25-2004, 02:23 PM
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Are there gasses going out of ATE or other brakes fluids? (Besides boiling it!)

What makes those fluids "bleedless?" I bleed mine for peace-of-mind and also beacuase small bubbles can migrate from lines into the pistons. Then I've got 'em.
Old 08-25-2004, 03:08 PM
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Jeff,
I ran the Castrol this past weekend at Mid Ohio for the first time. The brakes felt great all weekend. Out of HABIT I may bleed before Road America next week but don't feel that I have to. A better commentary probably came from Ngoldrich who runs the stupid-ast GT2 in GT1R. I think he said he has 9 events on his Castrol and hasn't had to bleed the brakes...of course I don't know that he has found the brake pedal yet (1:29 at MO!).
Old 08-25-2004, 03:17 PM
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George A
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Jeff,

I ran the past year without bleeding on SRF (around 8 to 10 DE's and several member days). I'm sold on it. Look at the web boiling point of the GS610, not even close to SRF's. Someone said that the wet boiling point is when the fluid accumulated 3% of water, which is typically 12 months. From that standpoint, I still think you would need to bleed the GS610 at least every two to three months.

George

Last edited by George A; 08-25-2004 at 03:37 PM.
Old 08-25-2004, 03:31 PM
  #39  
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George,
That is good to hear. If I spend
10 min. jacking car and putting on stands,
5 minutes to remove 4 wheels,
5 minutes to hook up bleeder,
10 minutes to bleed brakes,
10 minutes to reinstall wheels and
5 minutes to lower car, a total job is

40 minutes. That times 9 times per year is 3 hours....

makes Castrol at $65.00 once per year seem like quite a bargin.
Old 08-25-2004, 03:34 PM
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Jeff,
You forgot the cost of dropping your car off the stands like the Big Turtle! The fewer times you have to bleed your brakes or remove wheels, etc lessens the chance of forgetting to close a bleeder valve or torque a lug nut...
Old 08-25-2004, 03:44 PM
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Jeff, that's exactly my theory. I still don't understand why anyone would actually want to bleed the brakes if they don't have to. At $65 per year, which is actually a very good price, it has to be one of the best track products around. I'm actually hording a couple of bottle in my garage for personal use, but everytime someone does their brakes in my garage, they seem to disappear. Arrggghhhh.

George
Old 08-25-2004, 03:47 PM
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Very Good Point Greg.

I would be afraid to get into the chiropractic visits, lug nut searches, stripped bleeder valves, stained clothes, etc. Might be a fun post to learn of the most HWFMish moments while bleeding brakes...

Mine was probably not pinching the overflow line the first time I did the Carrera...no wait...the ONE time I did each wheel separately, i.e. took off right rear, bled it, put RR back on, etc, all the way around the car...well needless to say by the time I got to the front left the bleeder ran dry and I had to start from scratch!!!!
Old 08-25-2004, 03:58 PM
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Jeff,
My worst was letter the pressure bleeder sit on its side and not feed fluid while I bleed the whole system dry! Took several bleeds, use of a "hammer" and track time to get all the air out.
Old 08-25-2004, 04:00 PM
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Agreed. At the hourly rate I get for my services, $65 to avoid all those track event shenanigans is a true bargain. The opportunity cost is huge, not to mention the hassle (getting lazy these days).
Old 08-25-2004, 05:10 PM
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Two follow-up questions.

1. From the Hoerr website:

"Castrol SRF exceeds the US Federal Standards FMVSS 116 DOT 3 and DOT 4, ISO 4925, JIS K2233 and current SAE J1703 and is miscible with all conventional brake fluids conforming to these standards. However, mixing Castrol SRF and conventional brake fluids will reduce the benefits of Castrol SRF. It is strongly recommended that conventional brake fluid be drained from the system before flushing and re-filling with Castrol SRF. "

Does this mean that you completely empty the system first? Isn't it hard to get the air out of the system when refilling with the new fluid?

2. I have used a Motive pressure bleeder. On my M3, I *never* got a great pedal. Now I know why:

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm

Pressure bleeding do’s and don’ts

Pressure bleeding on its own is not necessarily a bad thing, but there are several steps one must take to ensure that the bleed event will result in an air-free brake system.

When we talk about pressure bleeding, we are referring to the process in which we pour our brake fluid into a pressure vessel, hook up a pressure source, and run the now pressurized fluid directly into the master cylinder reservoir. One by one the caliper bleeder screws are opened to allow the pressurized fluid to flow through the system until all of the old fluid has been purged. Simple, right?

Well yes, but beware of imitations – not all pressure bleeders are created equal. The professional units (the type you can consider using) separate the pressurized brake fluid from the pressure source (air) using a flexible rubber diaphragm. In this fashion, the pressurized air is kept from forcing its way into the fluid. As we all know, air and fluid should be kept as far apart as possible.

This brings us to the imitations. There seem to be a rash of products available lately that claim to be pressure brake bleeders at a fraction of the cost of the professional units. Like most things that sound too good to be true, well, it’s exactly that.

Like the professional units, these imitations contain a pressure vessel into which new brake fluid is poured. However, in order to pressurize the fluid, an integral pump handle is cycled to build the pressure inside the vessel without any measures taken to separate the pressurized air from the fluid. For those of you who have ever bought a $19.95 do-it-yourself potted plant and bug sprayer from Home Depot you get the idea.

Of course, having pressurized air in contact with the brake fluid will certainly force the fluid through the system just as effectively as the high-zoot professional unit, but as an added bonus we are stuffing air into the brake fluid at the same time. Talk about an unwanted surprise!

While it may not be visible to the naked eye (air can actually entrain itself in the fluid as to be visually undetectable) it’s there right along with all of the nasty moisture trapped inside of it. This of course begs the question: if you are stuffing air and water contaminated fluid into your brake system, why even bother bleeding it in the first place?

Naturally there will be those who argue that the amount of air in question is not important enough to worry about, but think about this for a moment: nearly every automotive manufacturer stores their bulk brake fluid in large containers which are subjected to a constant VACUUM. Talk about an expensive process! If just storing your fluid under regular atmospheric conditions isn’t good enough to keep air and water out, just imagine what shoving 30psi worth of compressed air on top of it is doing.

The professional units can cost hundreds of dollars, and for good reason; unfortunately the cost keeps them beyond the reach of most of us normal folks. Your best bet is probably to get back in the driver’s seat and begin stroking the pedal with your foot again, but ultimately the choice is yours.
Anyone found a good home pressure bleeder that uses a diaphram separating fluid from air?

Last edited by frayed; 08-25-2004 at 05:17 PM. Reason: clarity


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