Robert Henriksen

John, how much of your track time is spent in DEs versus racing? I agree with you on early point-bys; I also find that a lot of people who advance to the higher level run groups find that in order to keep growing/developing/scaring themselves , they natually migrate into racing, where these kinds of issues are moot.

SundayDriver

Intersting thread on the 993 board in light of the 'education' discussion over here.

DE passing signals

Brian P

Hmm, maybe the runs you took in black were on the second day. On the first day, the least of my complaints would have been about the timeliness of the signal. We had people either not signalling or allowing a giant train to get behind them and then letting only one car go per passing zone. Honestly, I've seen better out of yellow run groups.

I'm not sure what happened between day 1 and day 2, but it got MUCH better on day 2.

I'll go back to my previous statement - if the pass signals are given early enough that I don't have to lift, I'm happy. If they are given early enough that I don't have to start wondering if I'll have to lift, then I'm ecstatic.

Adam Richman

Wow, a Boxster S is a momentum car I fear I must swim in very different waters from the rest of you fellas

Ed Newman

I guess I'll put my 2 cents in here as well... During the last year I have done alot of DE's running in black and red. When I first moved up fromt white it was a whole new ball game. Going from being the fastest to one of the slowest was a big change. I had to learn to give passing signals again. Now I am fast again and I do have to say that at Metro NY events at least, I am nothing short of very impressed and thankful for all of the wonderfully aware drivers in red and black. 9 out of 10 times I get a pass with plenty of lead time and I don't even have to lift. Unfortunately I ended up in a precarious position at Pocono last week. Running in red and coming down the back straight I passed a car and was catching another 911. Having been paying more attention to the car I was passing and not the one ahead I quickly realized he was going WAY to slow for the group. At 150mph and still accelerating, I probably had 50 mph closure. Expecting a pass signal, I watched and waited. Decision time... I went around him anyway. I am not happy with this decision, but I felt it safer than slamming on my brakes. This begs the question of what that person was doing in an instructor group. No mechanical problems, just new to the track. For those of you that have not done Pocono full, the straight is longer and easier that WGI. I hate to say no excuse for doing 100, but my green student was going 100 first day on the track. Yes there are other drivers in Red that max out at 110 in their cars, but they are acutely aware of who is behind them and don't create these dangerou situations. All in all, I think PCA has a good program and I understand the pressure to move students up to balance the ranks and the recluctance to move up students just because they are fast. I guess we just need to spread the word that etiquite and safety go hand in hand especially in the faster run groups.

Brian P

Funny. I learned on a 2.5L tiptronic boxster. Granted, it's not quite the momentum car that a 944 NA is, but let me assure you that a drag race between the two would be very close. After learning how to conserve momentum in that car, I've since learned to do the same in the Boxster S.

The Boxster S has a similar power to weight ratio of a 993. Nowadays, that is getting to be a bit underpowered in the black and red run groups.

JackOlsen

I'd say any car that weighs more than 2500 pounds and has less than 300 hp could be considered a momentum car.

Which isn't to say it's not going to be pretty quick. Some momentum cars generate more momentum than others.

Adam Richman

Well, its a relative term, Michael Schumacher races a momentum car. Just a different fishbowl we must swim in, that's all. I can think of several NASA events several years ago where a Boxster S was arguably the most powerful car in the Instructor group (maybe a Bitch'n M3 and her 951 hubby would rival it power-wise but it would be on the top shelf). I think when most folks refer to it in the sense of a school though, they mean a car that can ill-afford to be forced to park it at the apex and still appear to be deserving of a point by in relation to the other cars out there.

I pointed it out just because it ties into what I was trying to say a few pages ago. I found that cars were progressively slower and went progressively faster the higher the rungroup and as I said: Even if you are in the low HP "momentum car," often times there will be someone out there in an even lower powered car pushing a bit faster. Knowing this and being respectful of it is kinda important IMO.

If you guys haven't tried a NASA hpde, I am pretty sure certified PCA instructors are welcome and you might find the open passing w/ a point more up your alley. Maybe not?? Just a thought.

Jack667

Ed - I had a similar experience at Lime Rock a few years ago. I think it was my first time in White, though. I passed a car on the front straight and was paying more attention to that, than the car in front. I didn't really know that there was a car in front until it was too late. The guy was going dog-slow in a 911. He was on the far left, probably at the 200 mark, and I was flying toward him. No signal (too late anyway), but I had a decision to make and I dove in to the right. As far as I was concerned, it was a very safe maneuver (as he was still far to the left), although I do regret that I didn't see him earlier, and that I wasn't able to safely slip behind him through Big Bend. At any rate, I was black flagged and chewed out for scaring some big-wig from the track, who was the passenger, taking a (very slow) touring lap around in my session. OOPS!

Jack667

PS - I was also going to add in my post above that I don't think that a 986S, 993, or even 964 are momentum cars. This would make a great new thread - to discuss this concept.
Speaking from experience, I used to drive a 964 in Black and I could keep up with most cars, even though I hadn't mastered the concept of momentum.

993's make great power, and I assume that 986s's do as well. Each of these cars have tons of torque and 6 gears. I just can't see calling them momentum cars...

JackOlsen

Good idea. Here's a new thread.

RedlineMan

Brian -

I'll tell you what happened. First, I think some of the better new advanced guys that were in black realized they were in The Bigs and got on the ball. Second, a lot of instructors went to RED! I went because I moved my student from Green to Yellow. I also went to find a higher level of courtesy. So Black was less densely populated on Sunday. "The fastest drivers left!"

Of course that mucked up Red a bit because of increased traffic, and I even had some problems there, but that is another story.

Ed -

I'm right with you. Well said. You do have the distinct advantage, running only Metro events, of having the same group of drivers each time. Having that familiarity is key to ultimate smoothness. A SKILLED group doesn't hurt either, of course. That is the way it used to be at the 48 Hours, but in recent years it has gotten fouled by a lot of new people coming in that were not up to par with awareness. Guess they just need some larnin!

As for what is a momentum car, that would be quite relative. A 964 would be compared to a 996 and so on. But, having a 50-or-more HP disparity with most of the rest of the "field" would seem to be a good barometer. Heck... it would be GREAT if that's all the gap I was dealing with!!