Brian P

I've got a friend who drives a stock 914 (well, actually a stock 914 puts out more HP ). I can't count the number of times I've seen someone give him a pass signal and then floor it out of the corner. It's amazing how many people think that if this car caught up to them, it must be putting out more power than that...

Geoffrey

I have to be honest, I have NO idea what it is like to drive a slow car fast at a track while trying to deal with traffic. No concept, it does not compute. I have seen situations where a slower car struggles to pass another car in front of me, but that just usually means I go 3 wide and pass both so I'm not really in the situation. I can tell you that every pass I give means I have to lift off the throttle for the overtaking car to complete its pass. For me, sometimes I can close on other cars so fast, and in those situations, I don't think (or expect) that they have seen me. An example is at the top of the esses at WGI where I may not be visible to a car if they check their mirrors at the beginning of the straight, but by the braking zone, I'm closing at +30mph and I really want the pass so I can continue without loosing momentum. If I don't get it, I want it at the next earliest passing zone and am setting up to pass on the inside, expecting the signal. This means I might not ride the car at turn in, but by the apex, I'm closing and carrying more speed than they are and am beginning the pass if you will by track out. I try to always give a "thank you" wave as I complete the pass.

Aggressive??? to some I suppose, but that is in my opinion the nature of advanced run groups.

Jack667

The first thing that I do when I get a pass signal is to pull out for the pass. If the passee does not lift, he will often break heavy and early, as he knows that I am trying to get by. If I don't get by, I'll get on his tail through the turn and look for another signal on the next straight.
I used to wait, before pulling out, or sometimes I would waive off the pass, as I knew it would be tough for me in my low-hp car to get by before the turn-in. I no longer wait, I feel that I've "earned" the pass when I get the signal, and it is up to the passee to let me by. He (or she) knows about lifting, and when they see me out in the passing lane and not gaining ground, they suddenly realize that they have more hp and that they may need to lift off completely or brake hard, as we approach the turn-in.

I also give pass signals at the apex AND trackout for the superfast cars - so they know I see them, and so they know which side to pass on. They are often already by me by the trackout cone. I feel that its a courtesy, and I often get a "thank you" wave. If I'm running at 10/10's, or I'm too busy for some other reason, or if the car is not all that much faster than me, I often wait until the trackout to give the signal

Adam Richman

Brian P, I'd say its more defined by how they appear to be in control of the car. I've had a Daiso-esque thingy seemingly underneath me at VIR before and didn't give it a second thought because there is no earthly way I am going to outbrake that car and I know the guy, he's not putting me in harm's way irrespective of how it looks from my vantage point. I have had an M5 in FRONT that scared the crap out of me cause in my estimation, his hands were way over his brows. I really think driving aggression is more in the attitude of the car rather than proximity or what the car is doing behind me.

Passing tight or giving room, staying off line into the turn or coming back over for more entry room after a pass, anticipating a pass or laying back until seeing a point - all that stuff IMO is really based on whom you are out there with. For the most part with instructors I am giving a wide berth passing on the straights, in the turns when they let me by, I am going to get up closer to them however as I feel it is safer for both of us and lets me get out of their way sooner. I will usually start to leak over to where I want to go by them as I think it helps the communication process. I have had guys cross the track and point the other way, that's fine by me, just trying to help out. When the roles are reversed, I try to point in the direction the point is coming so they have an idea what I am thinking (point in the turn and again more demonstratively exiting). I have had some monstorously fast cars come up on me unexpected and I'll usually give them a wave I see them and either pull the exit tighter or open it up some more to let them by toute suite. I am not out there to bork up anyone's seat time as much as I'd hope they feel the same towards me.

As someone mentioned the "earned pass" above, this is something I do believe in provided we are talking about the same thing. If I have passed a car with more straightline speed in a session and due to someone else holding me up they have gotten back up to me, I will not automatically give them a point. If they are there through the next set of turns, they are welcome to it however.

Personally, I found that most guys eventually do lift at some point after they have given a point. Sometimes it does seem to take them a moment (or 3/4 of a straight) to remember but I have found most do.

Brian P

Not a bad policy. I've started to find that usually both cars know what is going on. I've let a "slower" car by and caught up to him due to traffic. He gave me a pass signal and I waved it off because I knew that I caught him due to traffic, and I also wanted to learn why he was faster than me.

I've also had the situation reversed where I passed a "faster" car and they caught me due to traffic. Similarly, he waved off the pass signal that I gave him. Interestingly, this was at the Zone 1 event by a person who had just been promoted to the black run group.

Matt Romanowski

I think what alot of people are missing is John's orginal statement that people should be competent and courteous. If you're not comfortable enough with traffic, you should not be in the higher run groups. Part of dealing with traffic is letting faster cars pass, whether they have HP or not. If you not sure if someone is faster, let them pass. Some of my best sessions have been with a car of similar speed running "against" each other. I hope I didn't put words in John's mouth.

As for agressive driving, everyone has different styles. I guess I'm a little more lenient, but if a car gets a run on me at track out and or even a little early, that's alright by me.

Matt

Matt

RedlineMan

Great stuff guys!

Here's my rule;

- Everyone, give a signal to any car behind you.

If everyone does that, everyone will be happy and it will build a huge sense of community. If everyone who gets that signal knows that they have not earned it, then they can and should wave it off and everyone is extra happy. This REALLY builds that sense of community.

When you get a good pass, give a good wave of thanks. More community building. I give a huge one. If somebody actually gives it up and lifts for me, I give them a big Thumbs Up as I go by, no matter if it took them 1/2 a mile to get the hint. They'll remember next time!

After you've gone and done a bunch of fast laps, it's almost more fun to be in the mix. Working with other drivers, moving, jossling, setting each other up for traffic flow, three wide passes, ever try a four wide? Great fun! Yep, traffic can be fun with a good group of guys!

Just think of what we have brought to light here. We may have just schooled the next group of advanced drivers. Thanks guys!!

aeshultz

John;
You (and others) have mentioned 3 and 4 wide passes. Which/ how many Regions allow these? I've never seen it done without being called in "for a talk." Perhaps we're a bit conservative here in the Mid-West.....

Adam Richman

I don't think that's a conservative viewpoint, I too wonder if that would fly down this way. I am not sure, perhaps so. Heck, I haven't seen it that much in racing either now that I think about it.

aeshultz

No, neither have I. There are some times I can see it working, but it's generally frowned on "in these here parts."

Z-man

I've been a part of three-wide passing at Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, and Pocono. Most of the time, I was the middle car. Must be the 'fast pace' we're used to here in the North East.

In all honesty, it is a very efficient way to pass and keep from bunching up.

-Z.

Jack667

I'm a big fan of the 3-wide pass, but I've had people (particularly at BMW events) look at me like I have two heads when I talk about it between sessions.
If I'm passing a slow car and there is a faster car behind me, I'll furiously point the fast car by, and they'll usually go.

Brian P

Perhaps things are bigger up here in the Northeast (I thought that's a line used by Texas). Anyhow, several of our tracks have VERY wide straights and three wide passes can be done without any drama. Four wide can be done without drama also, but it's rare that you get that much coordination between drivers. Also, it's rare that the train is stacked up in order of slowest to fastest.

Bill935K3

Hi All
Good thread with many good points.

My two cents,
It is "education" . At our Last NER event at Mt. Tremblant I put on a two part passing seminar at lunch times and it went pretty well. Honesty there was some self-interest involved as a “faster car”. I covered the whole spiel IE description and diagrams of POWER – MOMENTUM – DRAFT BY AND (NOT FOR DE BRAKE ZONE), who is on line and who is off line, in various types of corners and combinations of same along with setup lines timeing your move etc. I think it is important to stress in Yellow / white that dealing with faster/slower overtaking traffic with out costing yourself speed IE “fun factor” is a skill to be mastered and to take pride in.
NER has used the “any place it is strait” WITH A POINT BY rule for Black and Red for several year and we seem to have a minimum of friction. I would suggest we (all PCA regions) due a good job with the basics but if we are having problems is white/black that we should look at our “continuing education” program. When I was doing Instructor Training we had some required reading. Maybe we should be beefing up the advanced techniques/terms training in the Mid-levels of DE with more class room offerings?

RedlineMan

Yes;

We do have the advantage of some wide tracks in the Northeast. 3-wides are not uncommon, and keep things moving nicely when they arise. I've only been in one 4-wide, and it is really no big deal when you are way inside. I never particularly knew it was happening until I first heard and then saw the 4th car go by on the outside of everyone. Everybody just holds their line until they are (well) clear and then tucks in. Pretty cool!

Most of the Northeast has employed the "wherever it's straight" rule for some time in most events. It is a lot of fun and keeps things moving. It's a hoot for us non racers to have a car inside bombing into the Esses at WGI and never lift! Now, we don't do that in the lower groups, but the 48 Hours did expand the zones to "almost" everywhere this year and it worked VERY well. Might as well school 'em early!

I guess this thread came about in my mind because I realized that the consistency of the sense of community that this type of advanced driving fomented has slipped dramatically in the last couple of years with the introduction of many new advanced drivers to the mix. As Bill suggests, it might be time to school some of these young'uns before we let 'em run with the Fleischunds!