Brian P

I think this is great! It appears that there is a need for instruction to continue and this is one good way to do it.

For example, I remember an incredible email that I got from the Potomac region. Basically, it said that being in the white run group didn't mean that you didn't need an instructor. Instead, it meant that you got to choose your instructor. Everybody needs instructors (even the instructors!) For example, Tiger Woods was widely considered to be the best golfer in the world. Ever since he parted with his coach (Butch Harmon), he has yet to win a major.

The classroom sessions with Schattenbaum were great. I thought it was a great way to share information and ideas with fellow run group drivers and also to get instructor input at the same time. As you said, it made sure that everybody was on the same page. While there may have been an agenda for the classroom (I can't remember) the question and answer session was the most memorable for me.

Other regions have tried something like having a run where instructors take a ride with all white run group drivers. Again, it's a great way to get someone in the car to make sure that any bad habits can be nipped in the bud early.

I'm sure there are other innovative ways to make sure that the education continues. I think the danger is that many white run group (and above) drivers think they already know everything. If clubs can find ways to get them interested in learning more, that will always be a good thing.

DJF1

You will find no objections from me on all the points raised here except this one. I'm sorry but I disagree on giving the point by at the apex. At the apex both my hands will remain stuck on the wheel, my eyes will look ahead and my concentration will remain on what my car is doing.
Especially in the advance groups we all take our cars to the limit pretty much and driving on the limit requires total concentration. For me the car behind should do exactly the same and if the advanced driver is prepared as they should be then after track out should give the point by and lift their foot from the gas completely to give a safe passing oportunity. This for me is one of the most critical and usual phenomenon. Fast cars not lifting sufficiently to allow the other car to complete a safe pass. Many times I have been forced to give a no pass wave because I know I cannot complete a safe pass due to the fact that maybe the straight is short and the car in front does not lift most of the times sufficiently.
Just my 0.2

carreracup21

Hi Everyone,

I've been doing a ton of DE's lately getting up to speed for Club racing. I must admit that it has at times been frustrating to go out for a session and maybe get in only 1 or 2 clean laps. Some drivers just won't let you pass either because they are inconsiderate or they just don't have good track awareness. While I have had some good PCA DE experiances, I can say that there are some other good alternative groups out there that offer the advanced drivers better quality track time. I just did an event at Roebling Road with an outfit called "Seat Time" ( I'm not affiliated with them) and they had 2 solo run groups that they seperated based on speed. I would get about 12 good clean laps per session !! It was great and I never saw a train the whole day. Of coarse it helped that I only had about 8 cars in my run group. If you look around you can find some of these events out there in the lesser known organizations. I think there are some great instructors out there in PCA though, probably some of the best anywhere. Once you get past that stage, and you want to really get those lap times down, you may find it more efficient to find some other more sparsely populated events IMHO.

Bill

Adam Richman

I am not sure if this is in poor taste and I am not trying to start any arguments but ... I somewhat hope noone in a DE environment is ever "on the limit" so to speak. I do agree that total concentration should exist at the limits, I however disagree one should be finding them in any school (even a competition school).

Not sure how all schools are in terms of passing. 'round here, NASA and THSCC have had open passing w/ a point by for their solo and instructor groups. In that environment, it is somewhat expected that you can get a point heading into, through, out of a turn. If one chooses to take it is their decision. I always liked that and am perfectly willing to give or take a point by anywhere on the track.

The only thing I'd add to the discussion on low HP cars and expectations is the thing that surprised me initially. Even if you are in the low HP "momentum car," often times there will be someone out there in an even lower powered car pushing a bit faster. Give them the room to recharge that momentum when you let them by, they will be gone, it might take a pardon from the governor until the next set of turns however to do so.

DJF1

No Adam it is not poor taste to debate opinions and I certainly don't like arguments as well. While the moral of the story so to speak the way you put it is valid , the reality is far from it. Besides doing 100+mph on a turn even not at the absolute limit demands respect and total concentration.
Noone is the instructors group is driving slow. Even if that is not at the absolute limit they are at high speeds. For me any high speed driving demands total concentration regardless if you are close to the car;s limit or not. It is not a Sunday drive on the track that is for sure. It would be wrong in my opinion to be a Sunday drive as well! The point of the exercise so to speak is to learn to drive at high speed safely your car. Most do it to better their skills and enjoy their high performance cars on a place that is controlled and relatively safe. That alone demands concentration at all times.
Therefore I refuse to practice something that all instructors teach their students: Always to have both hands on the wheel and looking ahead. If when you are at the apex or while turning take your eyes off for a second where they should be, you could miss a flag, an accident up ahead, vital information. Things happen very fast and that second can cost you vital meters of braking to avoid a wreck... Furthermore taking your left hand off the wheel, lets say on a left hander where in reality the left hand is responsible for turning down the wheel with precision you might end up loosing control if for some reason something goes wrong while you turn and you need to correct. Things dont need to take seconds to develop bad fast. It can happen in a split second at the speeds we run.
This is where my disagreement goes. To be honest what I have noticed is bad form from many drivers who maybe faster on the corner and they will pressure someone while turning. They are more impatient and that is where I ansolutely agree with you that a DE is not a race and therefore the passing car should exersice as well some patience and look ahead. If both the passing driver and the driver been passed exercise courtesy then everyone will have fun. Obviously this is not happening that is why we have these kind of threads.
Finally I always follow an easy solution instead of getting upset while driving fast. I pull into the hot pits wait for a few seconds and then problem most of the time is solved

Brian P

I'd prefer to believe that most passees who aren't giving signals are doing it because of the lack of track awareness. I'd hate to think some of them are actually sitting there saying, "I'm not going to give this guy a signal." The former is just a matter of more education.

Same thing with the passers. Yes, some people might do things that are considered aggressive, but I'd like to believe that's a matter of education. I.e., they might not realize that their actions could be considered aggressive or intimidating. Again, I'd hate to think that some drivers are out there thinking, "I'm going to scare the hell out of the guy in front of me."

Of course, suggesting to these people that they need more education can be a tricky matter. Do it wrong, and you could offend them, which would make them less receptive to getting the education that they need.

RedlineMan

Hey Danny;

That's your opinion, and I respect it. No where did I say that my thoughts were requisite or universal. Just my opinion, and how I do things. I can't think of too many turns where I am too busy to give a point at or very near the apex. Maybe 5B and 10 at Mosport or the Oak Tree hair pin at VIR.

Granted, I am not going 100mph anywhere in my car either. Certainly, if you've not quite gotten your corner right and there is some doubt whether you are on the right vector for a clean track out, you need to keep focussed, but if you've done it all right, all the potential drama is BEFORE the apex, and the rest is just getting to the straight. Unless a wheel is coming off, I've got lots of concentration to spare at that point.

And too, maybe one should not be at the limit if a faster car is waiting to get by. Would it not be more prudent and polite to ease up just a bit so that you COULD apportion off that smidgen of concentration to give that early signal?

I don't see why an advanced driver cannot remain at least 90% focussed on his own driving, and take his hand off the wheel for a split second to give a signal. Shouldn't even require looking away from your track out point. If the driver can't do that, perhaps he is not as "unconsciously competent" as he should like to be... yet.

Then, maybe I've gotten good at it from driving a slow car for so many years... being the perennial passee!!

Geoffrey

RedlineMan, must be the power steering...

I think the original topic was the skill level required to be in an advanced group (black/red) and I certainly agree that track awareness/courtesy should not be an issue. The goal is not to reduce the advanced groups to the "lowest common denomonator", but to provide a venue for those with the skills to handle it. You should not be promoted to black without demonstrating the skills to handle the substantially higher speeds (for given cars) as well as track management for those with cars of substantially higher capability (ex Cup cars). If you can't, then you should go back to white and learn those skills.

SundayDriver

There is a great deal of generalizing in this discussion and while that is a good way to make some points, you have to consider the many cases where that model does not apply. It may well be the case that slowing in the corner makes the pass even harder. If the overtaking car has better cornering but less hp, taking their cornering speed away makes it harder. Each case is different.

As far as taking your hand off the wheel at the apex, it all depends on how hard you are driving. If you are trying to drive near 10/10ths, then this is a really bad idea. If you are at 8 or 9/10ths, then great - you have plenty of excess capacity.

Z-man

On passing:
A couple of thoughts:

1. Point-by's in the corner: what's the difference if I give a point by in the corner or at the track out cone? Perhaps the car behind me will be able to get ahead of me a few meters earlier. But most passing zones are sufficiently long enough to not have to worry about a few meters! (The only really tight passing zone I can think of is the 'chute' between Big Bend and the Left Hander at Lime Rock). My point is this: it is far safer to give a point-by at track out rather than at the apex. Will this 'upset' the following car's momentum? Not if the cars are familiar with each other! Most people I run with know how I drive, what to expect of me, and they will certainly get a point by at the soonest (and safest) time if they come up behind me. As said before, in DE, it's safety first. It is far safer to signal after the apex (or signal before the turn and after as well).

2. I would rather give a point by at the track out and, if necessary, lift a little to let a car by. Again, if the driver is familiar with me, he will know that the point by will be coming and can set himself up for the pass.

3. If a corner is sharp enough, a driver following behind me may not see my point-by at the apex. The straighter the two cars are relative to each other, the easier it is to see the point. Also: the straighter the steering wheel is in my hands, the easier it is to control the car with one hand.

Now, for a short, true story. (Names and locations have been altered to protect the innocent )
I was out on track and caught up to a driver. No point by was given. No biggie: I figure I'd get one at the next straight. No such luck. We were just about equal in speed on the straight, but he was definately holding me up in the corners. After another 1/2 lap of this, a friend of mine caught up with us. Finally, after about 2 laps, I got the point by.
Although I was patient with the guy I was following, after the point by, my built up emotion caused me to drive perhaps the quickest laps I had ever driven! My friend who was behind me finally caught up with me, and I let him go by.
After the run, the guy who wouldn't let me by asked me "Was I holding you up?" I politely said, "Well, you could have let me by earlier." His response: "Well, you earned that pass." (I must have skipped that part of the track pack where it says passes must be earned.... )
At the end of the day, my friend who came up behind me during the incident asked me, "Who lit a fire under your butt? We were quite surprised how fast you were driving after you passed that guy." I inquired who the "We" was. It turns out that one of the chief instructors was riding with my friend! And the chief was ready to pit in and have the car I was following black flagged! Ya never know who's watching. Had I done the 'weaving to get attention' or the 'ride his bumper' bit, the chief may have not been so happy with me.

So, you never know who's out there with you. I think keeping your cool even in a frustrating situation like a car that won't let you pass is important.

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

Geoffrey

Personally, I would like to see a pass signal at track out because I know the other driver knows exactly where and when they want the pass taken, there is no lag time between signal and the pass. When a signal is given in the corner, by the time we get to track out, I am not 100% sure what is happening any longer, and I want to be 100% sure. As I come upon a car, I have a good idea of where and how I want to pass so I time it so I'm carrying more speed that the other car at track out and am positioning myself to pass, generally on the inside, which means my track out point is his rear corner, not the edge of the track. In a well educated group, this comes with no dramma and little loss of track speed, but only happens if people are practicing proper track management.

I have been to some open passing events and have enjoyed myself and like the freedom to pass in the corners with no siganl. However, I'm never 100% sure the other car sees me and that increases the risk of contact.

George A

Ok, I'll try to make mine short:

The best advice I ever received at a DE about traffic is to: "Deal with it!"

If someone is consistently holding you up, don't place yourself in situation to where you would be around them during the session. Some suggestion would be to grid up far away from them or pull into the pits when you get close to them. I know that you think it’s taking track time away from you, but think of all the aggravation you will be avoiding. Another suggestion would be to talk to the driver about the situation. Remember, they probably paid just as much as you did to drive on the track. If you want clean laps, go on a private day. I don’t expect a single clean lap at a DE, but when I get one, I’m happy.

There have been “bad” drivers in every run group I’ve ever driven in, but I’ve learned to deal with them. The term “bad” refers to drivers which I believe know they should give you a passing signal but don’t.

Finally, on the topic of when to give a passing signal, my reaction is back off when I see a passing signal before track out. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen drivers get two wheels off while trying to give the signal before track out. I have this vision of them coming across track and nailing me in the door.

George

PMS993

With all this discussion about DE driving and passing etiquette, how many of you participants have noticed that this level of training has made you a better more observant driver on the city / highway roads? I find myself more observant of what is around me and what is way in front of me. I also tend to concentrate more on driving and less on those other distractions that cause so many accidents.

The bottom line is: I appreciate DE's because they make me a better overall driver AND they are extremely fun.

(But...racing is more fun!!!)

Brian P

While we are on the topic of aggressive driving, what characteristics do people define as aggressive? SundayDriver made a great point that things that seem fairly routine to one driver in a highly capable car could seem aggressive to someone in a less capable vehicle.

For example, how close do you want a car to be to you before you consider it aggressive? Do we realize that if somebody is closer than our comfort level dictates, they might not consider it aggressive? Conversely, if we are following someone at a comfortable distance, that person may consider us aggressive?

Do you always wait behind the other car until the pass signal comes? Or, do you start to move over in anticipation of the pass signal? Is moving over considered aggressive?

Do you start to initiate the pass before the signal comes? I.e., might you take a corner tighter and start the pass in expectation of a signal (note you might do this where there is a very short passing zone). Is this considered aggressive? (By the way, I'm not suggesting that one should pass without a signal. I'm asking if in addition to moving over in anticipation of the pass signal, do you also accelerate?)

When you get the pass signal, how close are you to other car when you pass? Do you have a car width of distance? More? Less? Would being too close be considered aggressive?

I think we all might have different answers to these questions as a lot of them are very subjective. Furthermore, the answers could be highly dependent on run groups. For example, within the red run group, perhaps there is a reasonable expectation that pass signals will be given all of the time and you can start to initiate the pass expecting a pass signal to show up. In the green run group, you might be best advised to wait behind the other car. And in between those groups is a bunch of gray area.

RedlineMan

OK...

A lot of my comments are predicated on driving a substantially horsepower challenged car. It is obvious that a lot of you guys know little about the dynamics involved with that. For example, a stock 964 C2 is a pretty mundane car by advanced group standards, and yet you must realize that this car has 100HP MORE than I do. Unless you live it, you just don't get it. That's not crying, just the realities.

Anyway, here's my deal. I give passes EARLY. Regardless of whether the car behind is fast or slow, I hustle my *** through the turn and signal at the apex. I have no problems doing this. I don't drop wheels, I don't waver from my line, I don't even look up. I just do my thing quickly and efficiently. If you cannot or do not feel comfortable doing this, that is OK. Maybe you'll get there some day... power steering or no! I merely offer it as an idea of ultimate communal driving etiquette.

If the driver behind is nervous about me, it is his prerogative to wait, but at least I did my part on his behalf. Once he gets used to me, he LOVES me for this! If it is a high HP car, I really don't care if I slow him down because he'll be gone anyway. If it's a low HP car, I want to be as quick as I usually am. In either case, I am doing the same thing. Getting it done quick and clean.

Sunday - As far as slower cars loosing pace, that is PRECISELY WHY I signal them early, and why I appreciate an EARLY signal from a slower car ahead of me. This allows me to move out of their mirrors early and take a different line (inside or outside) that allows me to keep my momentum up to the max instead of lifting and ******* along waiting for them to get around to it while making sure they see me. The best scenario is when I have timed my exit acceleration perfectly and am already making my move as the driver signals. That is heaven to me!!

Z - Getting people to lift is THE HARDEST thing to achieve. MUCH harder than even getting a signal in the first place. I'd rather get the jump on them when I still have the advantage. I'm faster in the turns already, and I want to use that advantage to get along side them early instead of watching them signal and then disappear! This is particularly important when I have a faster car behind me, and therefore am looking to set up a double pass. If I can get an early signal and get the jump on that slower car early, I can then quickly give a signal to the car behind me to go by us both. Now THAT'S DRIVING!

I've been a run group mole for years. If someone is holding ME up, they NEED a chat with Pit One!

Geoff - You're right. What it takes to be advanced was the original discussion, and a great one it has been. Passing is the biggest part of advanced etiquette. To those who are in this boat, participating here, or lurking, they are finding out about the advanced dynamic.

Mission accomplished!