PCA Club Racing: Abolish 13/13 for 9-race probation & Keep points
04-29-2024, 10:33 PM
#91
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We've run lots of laps around the track record without contact. Summit Point, VIR and LRP - all great, recent examples.
But accidents still happen! It's a fantasy to think rules can make them go away. The larger issue doesn't stem from these instances of contact - refocus on my two examples - it stems from drivers who are constantly making bad decisions!!
But accidents still happen! It's a fantasy to think rules can make them go away. The larger issue doesn't stem from these instances of contact - refocus on my two examples - it stems from drivers who are constantly making bad decisions!!
You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
Not unless you want to make it commonplace!
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
^Yes!
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
^Exactly
Not unless you want to make it commonplace!
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
^Yes!
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
^Exactly
This is what I’m talking about above in Bold. And why I don’t race with PCA. I am similarly aged to you and have a VERY serious soft spot for wanting to race in 911CUP (god, I wish I could go back about 15 years and buy several SC’s to convert to fun toys) but my path took me towards a 996Cup which I love way too much to risk unnecessary contact. Which is why I’m headed to HSR in the next year or so.
Sad but true.
Last edited by Mike Roblin; 04-29-2024 at 11:03 PM.
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ProCoach (04-30-2024)
04-29-2024, 10:34 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by ProCoach
I guess the club doesn’t think it can assign a 13 WITHOUT contact, sounds like.
And I think this is a HUGE mistake. Whether there is a damage or not has nothing to do with the severity/stupidity of a move! Sometimes a small mistake leads to big damage. And sometimes big mistakes - or even egregious mistakes - results in no damage (let's call that luck) or a rubout. This needs to be fixed!
Another example of a largely unchecked bad habit that's super dangerous: drivers who miss yellow/black/red flags.
A well conceived points based system - x number of points of more during y time period earns you a suspension for z months - could start address all of this.
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will968 (04-29-2024)
04-29-2024, 10:34 PM
#93
...these are the guys who aren't leaving room; who are dive bombing; leaving it to other drivers to avoid contact; and generally, making ****ty decisions on a regular basis largely because these actions are completely unchecked. The 13 is a bad rule TODAY because it does NOTHING to address these drivers ...
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ProCoach (04-29-2024)
04-29-2024, 10:45 PM
#94
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04-29-2024, 10:48 PM
#95
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@winders , the original 13/13 stated this (placing on probation at the discretion of the stewards or drivers committee a driver deemed a hazard to themselves or others).
That has a place in the original rule…
That has a place in the original rule…
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winders (04-29-2024)
04-29-2024, 10:50 PM
#96
@winders , the original 13/13 stated this (placing on probation at the discretion of the stewards or drivers committee a driver deemed a hazard to themselves or others).
That has a place in the original rule…
That has a place in the original rule…
04-30-2024, 02:04 AM
#97
Please read these two, one after the other. WHICH IS IT?
It's clear you want to normalize contact. As you've explained, "it's just racing." You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
I can tell you that there are a lot of people that are moving away from PCA Club Racing (and from some other venues) precisely because of this line of thinking.
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
It's clear you want to normalize contact. As you've explained, "it's just racing." You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
I can tell you that there are a lot of people that are moving away from PCA Club Racing (and from some other venues) precisely because of this line of thinking.
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
04-30-2024, 02:35 AM
#98
Rennlist Member
Maybe I'm just cynical, but what jumped out to me in the rule change is what's highlighted: "1. At-fault incidents will result in a 9-race probation with the retention of your national championship points for all races other than the one in which the incident occurred. 2. A second at-fault incident during the probationary period will result in a 6-month suspension from the program, after which the racer must apply to the race chair for reinstatement. 3. This program change is retroactive to the beginning of the 2024 season and anyone currently on a 13/13 probation or suspension."
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
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ProCoach (04-30-2024)
04-30-2024, 04:47 AM
#99
Maybe I'm just cynical, but what jumped out to me in the rule change is what's highlighted: "1. At-fault incidents will result in a 9-race probation with the retention of your national championship points for all races other than the one in which the incident occurred. 2. A second at-fault incident during the probationary period will result in a 6-month suspension from the program, after which the racer must apply to the race chair for reinstatement. 3. This program change is retroactive to the beginning of the 2024 season and anyone currently on a 13/13 probation or suspension."
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
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ProCoach (04-30-2024)
04-30-2024, 08:38 AM
#100
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Maybe I'm just cynical, but what jumped out to me in the rule change is what's highlighted: "1. At-fault incidents will result in a 9-race probation with the retention of your national championship points for all races other than the one in which the incident occurred. 2. A second at-fault incident during the probationary period will result in a 6-month suspension from the program, after which the racer must apply to the race chair for reinstatement. 3. This program change is retroactive to the beginning of the 2024 season and anyone currently on a 13/13 probation or suspension."
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
The existing 13/13 rule made any sanctioned driver ineligible for national championship points for that calendar year. Not only has that been dropped, but the rule change was made retroactive...so I assume there are some drivers whose championship status benefits greatly from the change.
This doesn't affect me in the least, but normally when I look for motives I think "who benefits?".
04-30-2024, 08:44 AM
#101
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Only if you screw up. Or run out of talent. Either way this “accident” is avoidable.
@Jas0nn
This is what I’m talking about above in Bold. And why I don’t race with PCA. I am similarly aged to you and have a VERY serious soft spot for wanting to race in 911CUP (god, I wish I could go back about 15 years and buy several SC’s to convert to fun toys) but my path took me towards a 996Cup which I love way too much to risk unnecessary contact. Which is why I’m headed to HSR in the next year or so.
Sad but true.
@Jas0nn
This is what I’m talking about above in Bold. And why I don’t race with PCA. I am similarly aged to you and have a VERY serious soft spot for wanting to race in 911CUP (god, I wish I could go back about 15 years and buy several SC’s to convert to fun toys) but my path took me towards a 996Cup which I love way too much to risk unnecessary contact. Which is why I’m headed to HSR in the next year or so.
Sad but true.
I think PCA Club Racing has been at a crossroads fibrillating with solutions to this challenge for an extended period of time. The move to allow probationers to retain national points, let alone backdate this year, is NOT moving in the right direction for accountability, and it’s lost some of its value as a deterrent to those drivers that just don’t get it.
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redmcoupe (05-29-2024)
04-30-2024, 09:30 AM
#102
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Mike Roblin (04-30-2024)
04-30-2024, 09:53 AM
#103
Burning Brakes
With all due respect HSR is very different racing than PCA. Just look at the pic and you have a 911 , 944, Mustang, Firebird, Datsuns, Miata, RX7 and all sorts of cars in all sorts of different classes. While that is great in its own form is very different than running same marquee, same class, same cars in PCA.
comparing the two is very different. If one likes that, that is cool. I’d rather race someone in a very very similar car where I know the driver makes the difference.
comparing the two is very different. If one likes that, that is cool. I’d rather race someone in a very very similar car where I know the driver makes the difference.
04-30-2024, 10:17 AM
#104
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While that is great in its own form is very different than running same marquee, same class, same cars in PCA.
comparing the two is very different. If one likes that, that is cool. I’d rather race someone in a very very similar car where I know the driver makes the difference.
comparing the two is very different. If one likes that, that is cool. I’d rather race someone in a very very similar car where I know the driver makes the difference.
I'm not making race group comparisons between HSR or other events to PCA Club Racing besides POC. Just that it's fun and just like in real life, Porsche's tend to be out front in competition.
But, if you think racing same class cars in PCA Club Racing, with the noted exception of SPB, SPC and other tightly controlled classes is where the driver makes the difference, I think you're in for a rude awakening...
Learned that studying the relative performance across GTB1 in the heyday, over many years...
04-30-2024, 10:33 AM
#105
Burning Brakes
I’m well aware of the classes in PCA and in my opinion they provide the closest/tightest racing of most organizations.
You reference the spec classes and they’re great examples. 911Cup is another example. We have some of the fastest guys on the grid, that race hard BUT clean. They’re running times in 40 year old cars with 210whp that are comparable to modern cars with lots more HP. It’s a testament to their ever improving skills. I race in 911Cup because of that. I’m one of the slower guys but I like the challenge and competition and I’m trying to get closer to those guys. That’s my personal challenge.
You reference the spec classes and they’re great examples. 911Cup is another example. We have some of the fastest guys on the grid, that race hard BUT clean. They’re running times in 40 year old cars with 210whp that are comparable to modern cars with lots more HP. It’s a testament to their ever improving skills. I race in 911Cup because of that. I’m one of the slower guys but I like the challenge and competition and I’m trying to get closer to those guys. That’s my personal challenge.
I understand completely. I know why Alan started PCA Club Racing because I was racing with him when he did it.
I'm not making race group comparisons between HSR or other events to PCA Club Racing besides POC. Just that it's fun and just like in real life, Porsche's tend to be out front in competition.
But, if you think racing same class cars in PCA Club Racing, with the noted exception of SPB, SPC and other tightly controlled classes is where the driver makes the difference, I think you're in for a rude awakening...
Learned that studying the relative performance across GTB1 in the heyday, over many years...
I'm not making race group comparisons between HSR or other events to PCA Club Racing besides POC. Just that it's fun and just like in real life, Porsche's tend to be out front in competition.
But, if you think racing same class cars in PCA Club Racing, with the noted exception of SPB, SPC and other tightly controlled classes is where the driver makes the difference, I think you're in for a rude awakening...
Learned that studying the relative performance across GTB1 in the heyday, over many years...