PCA Club Racing: Abolish 13/13 for 9-race probation & Keep points
04-29-2024, 07:47 PM
#76
I don't see why/how this encourages contact ...
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I had a very, very close weekend of racing with a fellow CUP racer whom I've enjoyed racing with for the past few seasons. We raced nose-to-tail for the entirety of two sprints and went through many corners side-by-side. Between us, I think I counted in excess of 30 pass attempts. In the final few minutes of the second sprint, we were P1/2 and we went through a fast corner together. I was ahead on the outside; he was on the inside. I left him as much room as I could, but he went in a bit too fast and understeered into me on the exit. I was on the curbs at that point, so couldn't save it. The resulting contact wasn't too bad, but there was enough damage that it was not a rubout.
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I had a very, very close weekend of racing with a fellow CUP racer whom I've enjoyed racing with for the past few seasons. We raced nose-to-tail for the entirety of two sprints and went through many corners side-by-side. Between us, I think I counted in excess of 30 pass attempts. In the final few minutes of the second sprint, we were P1/2 and we went through a fast corner together. I was ahead on the outside; he was on the inside. I left him as much room as I could, but he went in a bit too fast and understeered into me on the exit. I was on the curbs at that point, so couldn't save it. The resulting contact wasn't too bad, but there was enough damage that it was not a rubout.
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04-29-2024, 09:01 PM
#77
Pro
If you are racing so hard and so close that there is no room for error without their being contact, you are racing too hard, too close, or both. Why? Because this is Club Racing, not professional racing, and you and the guys you are racing with are not so good that they can race without making errors...especially when racing at your or their limit.
Last edited by Jas0nn; 04-29-2024 at 09:03 PM.
04-29-2024, 09:08 PM
#78
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In PCA - I believe, please correct if I'm wrong - someone is determined to be at fault for every contact, whether the contact is a rubout or not, and that responsibility is recorded.
I also believe its true that every instance of contact that isn't ruled a rubout, requires that the at-fault party receive a penalty.
Lastly, that decision can be appealed - but PCA will only overturn a penalty, not shift the penalty to the other party. For example: if I'm at fault and given a penalty, but am deemed NOT to be at-fault upon appeal, the other party does not then receive a penalty.
Paging our RL stewards - is this accurate?
I also believe its true that every instance of contact that isn't ruled a rubout, requires that the at-fault party receive a penalty.
Lastly, that decision can be appealed - but PCA will only overturn a penalty, not shift the penalty to the other party. For example: if I'm at fault and given a penalty, but am deemed NOT to be at-fault upon appeal, the other party does not then receive a penalty.
Paging our RL stewards - is this accurate?
If a driver wins an appeal then that means the other driver is actually at fault but that driver will never be penalized for it. They get away with it.
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04-29-2024, 09:44 PM
#79
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That a value decision you're making for us - and lots of assumptions very far removed from any of this! We've all make lots of mistakes over the course of many weekends that haven't resulted in contact. So you're point really doesn't hold water. Sometimes contact happens - whether in club racing, or endurance racing, or pro racing. And that is racing ...
No. Racing is running close, clean and on the track record WITHOUT contact. It happens ALL the time. And THAT is racing...
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Mahler9th (04-30-2024)
04-29-2024, 09:45 PM
#80
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In PCA - I believe, please correct if I'm wrong - someone is determined to be at fault for every contact, whether the contact is a rubout or not, and that responsibility is recorded.
I also believe its true that every instance of contact that isn't ruled a rubout, requires that the at-fault party receive a penalty.
Lastly, that decision can be appealed - but PCA will only overturn a penalty, not shift the penalty to the other party. For example: if I'm at fault and given a penalty, but am deemed NOT to be at-fault upon appeal, the other party does not then receive a penalty.
Paging our RL stewards - is this accurate?
I also believe its true that every instance of contact that isn't ruled a rubout, requires that the at-fault party receive a penalty.
Lastly, that decision can be appealed - but PCA will only overturn a penalty, not shift the penalty to the other party. For example: if I'm at fault and given a penalty, but am deemed NOT to be at-fault upon appeal, the other party does not then receive a penalty.
Paging our RL stewards - is this accurate?
04-29-2024, 09:47 PM
#81
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OF COURSE, CONTACT IS THE PROBLEM. The revised rule did not abolish a penalty for contact. We have always been and are still a no contact series. Like many of our pandered youth, people need to stop looking for big brother to solve all of their problems. Have you heard of a race series with a perfect set of rules and regulations, PCA is doing its best. At some point, we have to believe in the integrity of those around us. If a racer is not exhibiting proper racing practices, I will suggest that their peers will let them know. This is simply called taking responsibility.
The reason why there is contact is too few people realize until it's too late that they're on a trajectory for contact. Their grasp does NOT equal their reach.
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Mike Roblin (04-29-2024)
04-29-2024, 09:49 PM
#82
Pro
Originally Posted by ProCoach
You watch too much racing on TV.
No. Racing is running close, clean and on the track record WITHOUT contact. It happens ALL the time. And THAT is racing...
No. Racing is running close, clean and on the track record WITHOUT contact. It happens ALL the time. And THAT is racing...
But accidents still happen! It's a fantasy to think rules can make them go away. The larger issue doesn't stem from these instances of contact - refocus on my two examples - it stems from drivers who are constantly making bad decisions!!
04-29-2024, 09:55 PM
#83
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It's clear you want to normalize contact. As you've explained, "it's just racing." You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
I can tell you that there are a lot of people that are moving away from PCA Club Racing (and from some other venues) precisely because of this line of thinking.
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
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04-29-2024, 10:00 PM
#84
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You and I will have to agree to disagree. Racing does NOT inherently involve contact.
If there IS contact (and you point out drivers making bad decisions being a prime cause), then there is a regulation and a rule against that to define incident responsibility.
IF a driver is assigned responsibility, they're put on probation. IF they do it again during the probation, their competition privileges are suspended for a time.
It's called the 13/13 rule...
04-29-2024, 10:03 PM
#85
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This is a key point and exactly why we need people to participate (i.e. race 9 more races without a problem) instead of vacating the club for 13 months. You prove that your learning to be better by showing that you can avoid contact for 9 races rather than sitting out for 13 months and come back (if you don't just choose to go elsewhere) without any additional race experience.
That is a personal decision. And chicken$#!t, if you ask me.
I think it IS important that the driver on probation be forced to race cleanly through it.
I just don't see the cure to the disease in this change.
04-29-2024, 10:15 PM
#86
Pro
Please read these two, one after the other. WHICH IS IT?
It's clear you want to normalize contact. As you've explained, "it's just racing." You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
I can tell you that there are a lot of people that are moving away from PCA Club Racing (and from some other venues) precisely because of this line of thinking.
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
It's clear you want to normalize contact. As you've explained, "it's just racing." You've also made the claim that "real, competitive" racing entails greater risk and the likelihood of contact.
I can tell you that there are a lot of people that are moving away from PCA Club Racing (and from some other venues) precisely because of this line of thinking.
It's also my experience that you can run so close, side by side with people you trust, at track record pace, WITHOUT contact.
Bottom line is no one HAS to hit someone else. It's a choice. If they make a mistake, they're not at the skill level they should be at to try the risky move.
Also, if you track incidents better than PCA Club Racing is doing now (evidently), patterns become apparent. Too many times, I've heard folks say after an incident that they're not even involved in, "oh, that driver, again..."
Let's try fixing that first.
Nothing in the new rule encourages accidents. It's just not factually correct. If you disagree with that, it would be good to understand HOW/WHY you think this encourages accidents ...
On the other point, I simply don't agree that accidents can ever be eliminated. Sure we can strive to limit them. We all pay for damages on our owns cars; I don't think anyone likes it. But it happens. (That's why they're called accidents).
The concern that I see, based on my experience with PCA, isn't how you try to eliminate relatively rare accidents by most drivers, but how you change the on-going, seemingly unchecked bad habits exhibited by some others. Back to my example: the first driver gets his 13. He goes back to racing - and if history is any guide, he comes off 13 without incident (in the same way he avoided 13 for almost a decade before that). But the later example is the one I'm most worried by: these are the guys who aren't leaving room; who are dive bombing; leaving it to other drivers to avoid contact; and generally, making ****ty decisions on a regular basis largely because these actions are completely unchecked. The 13 is a bad rule TODAY because it does NOTHING to address these drivers ...
Last edited by Jas0nn; 04-29-2024 at 10:17 PM.
04-29-2024, 10:23 PM
#87
If you are racing so hard and so close that there is no room for error without their being contact, you are racing too hard, too close, or both. Why? Because this is Club Racing, not professional racing, and you and the guys you are racing with are not so good that they can race without making errors...especially when racing at your or their limit.
That a value decision you're making for us - and lots of assumptions very far removed from any of this! We've all make lots of mistakes over the course of many weekends that haven't resulted in contact. So you're point really doesn't hold water. Sometimes contact happens - whether in club racing, or endurance racing, or pro racing. And that is racing ...
"Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program jeopardizes safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated."
The last time I checked, PCA wants no contact....even contact that results in a "rub out" call. Accepting contact as normal is not a good thing for PCA Club Racing. When contact happens and damage occurs, someone (the person at fault) should be assigned blame and be put on probation.
Look, it's pretty clear that PCA club racers as a group don't want their cars damaged racing. I certainly don't. If I am driving so close and so hard that I am going to cause damage if I make a small mistake, I am driving too close, too hard, or both.
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Mahler9th (04-30-2024)
04-29-2024, 10:25 PM
#88
I hate that word accident. Every time I see it used it's to deflect responsibility.
04-29-2024, 10:27 PM
#89
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The concern that I see, based on my experience with PCA, isn't how you try to eliminate relatively rare accidents by most drivers, but how you change the on-going, seemingly unchecked bad habits exhibited by some others.
Back to my example: the first driver gets his 13. He goes back to racing - and if history is any guide, he comes off 13 without incident (in the same way he avoided 13 for almost a decade before that).
But the later example is the one I'm most worried by: these are the guys who aren't leaving room; who are dive bombing; leaving it to other drivers to avoid contact; and generally, making ****ty decisions on a regular basis largely because these actions are completely unchecked. The 13 is a bad rule TODAY because it does NOTHING to address these drivers ...
Some orgs do do that. A) so they can track easier across multiple event staffs, and B) to put the driver on notice.
Agree wholeheartedly in bold.
04-29-2024, 10:29 PM
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