Manifold

That's part of the social dynamics I referred to. That kind of cronyism is bound to happen.

Zhao

I dunno, one doctor who put any study time into researching effects on sleep deprivation in high adrenalin sports might change the value of those studies. I think we can all agree it's apples to oranges for that data's comparison. Way too many other factors at play and the results of a study are almost guaranteed to find very different . The vessel may be basically the same but the activity is not even close. It would be like comparing death stats while standing in your living room in a house with your family vs while unarmed fighting a robber wielding a machete in your house. Both happen inside the same vessel but the activity is totally different.

If you want to talk about liability, what do you think opens up liability more for PCA?

1) allowing a medical doctor to inspect the driver and take full responsibility for signing off on them if they are safe or not.
2) allowing a medical doctor to inspect the driver and let them sign off on them, then over ruling that doctor's professional opinion negating it's value and coming up with a new determination with no apparent procedure behind it and no in person diagnostic. My anecdotal evidence is almost worthless (but it is a step towards proving my point since there are thousands of drivers racing 24 hour enduros each year that it can be compared against), but it's a step up from PCA's 'we know best because we race' answer.

IMO there was no liability issue until PCA decided to take on a liability themselves. I am not a lawyer but I know road race clubs and sanctioning bodies do not require what PCA asked for (we never took it upon ourselves as a club to ever question a doctor sign off when I was a board member), and my experience is most clubs if not almost all use the same insurance underwriters so why now? Why this driver? Why is PCA saying '**** this driver in particular in the ***'. PCA decided to take something that was no issue, and turn it into an issue, and decided to take full responsibility by saying luigi's doctor shouldn't have signed off on him, with no apparent procedures on how they decide if a driver is ok or not beyond a driver's doctor's s. Further, since PCA is claiming not using a CPAP machine is race license ending by asking for a machine history at time of licensing..... by that request they are claiming they are qualified to determine based off CPAP machine usage data if a driver is ok or not. But also, that is only historical data and offers zero proof of future compliance; if they neglect to ask for that data on race day, that would potentially open themselves up to further liability by not following with up to date cpap data they can analyse? Shouldn't they require ongoing data on race day proving CPAP machine usage now if that is one of their requirements for licensing? By not following up I see further liability being taken on on their part.

My opinion was always they shoulda just let the medical doctor take full responsibility for signing off on Luigi. He said he was good, so he's good. Everything they think they're doing is just potentially causing them huge problems with liability and they might have just opened up a big can of worms with some angry widow someday thx to this thread and them sticking to the 'we know more than the signing off doctor and are the final check and balance of determining medical fitness' statement.

needmoregarage

Two days ago; 45 posts ago, and 3 pages ago, Luigi said he’s “done” (I’m paraphrasing, but he indicated he will not pursue this any longer).

Why is everyone still arguing?

I keep coming back to see if Luigi has anything more to add. At this point nothing new is being said.
Over and out.

Manifold

The topic is broader than just Luigi's particular plight.

needmoregarage

I agree. But I’m not reading anything that hasn’t already been discussed/reviewed.

Doesn’t matter to me if this goes on for many more pages…

krell

deleted

Manifold

It's RL, we go in circles in threads just like we do on the track, and that keeps us entertained.

Zhao

yup, if I can race 250 laps in a day and not be bored, going in circles 5 times in a thread is called a warmup lol.

LuigiVampa

I heard about the presentation the audit committee made to the board of directors. The presentation was distorted and one-sided. If I heard the facts as they presented them I would have thought that PCA was acting correctly as well.

The audit committee didn't even do the barest of investigations. How dare they claim they did their job!

We have pages and pages of rules but they only mean what PCA says they mean. With so much competition for drivers, be it DE or Club Racing, PCA gave itself a big black eye by dismissing my claims without any reply.

Zhao

Yes, very stupid. Someone from every region probably reads this thread and most probably aren't on the PCA side of things. It makes for a good enough story for how asinine it sounds that I'm sure it has gotten spread around and fits the narrative that they're overly stuffy and rigid on rules that don't make any sense so I'm sure it's been spread around to a lot of Porsche owners and future Porsche owners.

"PCA denied a driver because they were worried he'd fall asleep while racing without his CPAP machine when his doctor already said he'd be fine" is the kinda stupid story people remember when they decide which outfit to go racing. PCA may lose zero people over this, but they're going to miss out on gaining a whole bunch of new blood I bet.

If PCA popped up with road racing in my region I wouldn't build a car for them; I'd just continue to road race where I know stupid *** rules aren't going to make me have to figure out how to modify my car to reclass it into another clubs racing when someone decides they don't want to see me take a trophy away from their best back marker friends in my class and figures out how to use the rules against me. Then I'd have to cross my fingers the class I fit in in another group actually has people driving or I get to build a new car. No thx.

NaroEscape

[/size]
It’s worse than that.
The comments I hear at both PCA and non PCA track events is this:

”PCA won’t let you race if you use a CPAP”. Period.

Maybe not exactly true, but just read the news and see how truth gets distorted as it gets repeated.

M_Weining

Pretty soon that will include participation in HPDE, autocross, rally and driving tour events!!!

Manifold

Honestly, I don't think PCA will get much of a bruising from this. People buy Porsches, they join PCA to affiliate with other Porsche owners, they attend PCA events and have fun. Some percentage of people who attend the events get upset about things that happen (I'm one of them) and stop attending events (I attend a lot less than I used to), but they're more than replaced by new members. As long as PCA is the only major Porsche club and Porsches remain desirable enthusiast cars, PCA will keep going. If someone wants to enjoy their PCA experience, best thing to do is avoid conflicts with people and accept that you'll sometimes have to deal with disagreeable people (even more so if you take a leadership position).

LuigiVampa

The "leaders" will get replaced as well. Eventually, people cycle out.

The problem with the current leadership is that they have been there too long and think they are PCA.

Manifold

The leaders get replaced, but with people who generally wind up behaving similarly in the aggregate.