wannabefaster

I've been running a 944 Turbo F class car for several years on S03 245x35x18s all around with very good wear, i usually get at least 12-15 sessions out of them. I flip them inside/out after about 6-7 sessions. Running 3 deg neg camber all around and typically 43 psi hot. Tire temps show the inside running about 20 deg hotter than middle/outside...same temps front and rear

I bought a new set of S04s for the Mid Ohio Club race and spent about a half hour talking with the Midwest Hoosier about what i had done in the past and what i should expect from the S04. The recommendation was a couple of pounds more hot pressure. I scrubbed the tires in and they sat for about 36 hrs.

So i really liked the tires and they seem to have more "staying" power or consistency between early and late in the session. I ran warmup, qualifying and the sprint no obvious problems.

Last week i was at WG for the HCR Adv DE, within 2 sessions the outside shoulder in the front was corded and the rear outside shoulder didn't look too healthy. I didn't expect this with so few cycles and had i decided to stay out for the follow session an unintended meeting with Uncle Bill's sky blue Armco could easily have ensued.

I put my really old (last years rubber at least 10 sessions, not much "tread" left) and finished another 4 long sessions before they were shot.

I got a call from Bob Woodman Tires today asking if i was going to be needing tires for the Glen Club race...and I said "Let me tell you a story..."
He groaned because he already knew what i was going to tell him. Later i got a call back and he tells me that Jeff Spear at Hoosier is handling all the "premature" wear issues (574-784-3152).

In the last couple of days Hoosier issued a product bulletin that IMHO is CYA marketing BS. To paraphrase..."the 04s are different than the 03s and you need to evaluate your car setup". There are no recommendations as to the proper setup....as each car and driver is unique. The full text is on their web site http://www.hoosierracingtire.com

I don't know about you guys, but even if it turns out we are ALL idiots running really low pressures and no negative camber and other suspension ills, the way Hoosier has handled this doesn't leave me with a good feeling. If the tires are significantly different than the S03s they should have given some general guidelines UPFRONT about changes that might be required, before we blew thru $1000 worth of tires in 4 sessions. If this keeps up, I expect the guys at Michelin will be grinning all the way to the bank.

So if you've had a problem please let Jeff at Hoosier know how you feel

Premier Motorsp

Why should anyone bother letting Hoosier know how he feels? Nothing Hoosier has done up until this point indicates that they care even one iota about how the S04 performs.

I WAS willing to accept that maybe we all need to retune our chassis initially to work well with S04s. But this new 'product bulletin' is nothing but an insult to my intelligence.

How can they call it a 'product bulletin' when it makes NO specific recommendations and contains not one useful fact?

All that product bulletin is is a pathetic attempt at covering someones ***.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

trumperZ06

Yep, nothing but.... PROPAGANDA !

Absolutlely no information.

Greg Fishman

That product bulletin is garbage. It might as well have been titled a legal disclaimer...

Has anyone tried to get the GAC 03's? Just thinking they may be another option, before switching to another tire.

Rick

I've had good success with getting Jeff to reply to emails (I had a bunch when I put 03s on my track car) - I just sent him an email with questions regarding alignment settings & target pressures; I'll forward on whatever response I get from him.

RandPierson

I am reading the posts on this subject and trying to figure out whether only the 245 and 285 18"s have this problem.

I also saw the "Service Bulletin" on the Hoosier website. I am really sad about how this is comming down. They seem to be leavng the field testing to us. They must have forgotten how quickly allegiances change (remember the BFG R1).

mmporsche

I have a 1989 944 Turbo that I run in PCA E and SCCA ITE and tried the S04's in a 245 40 17 in the front and a 275 40 17 in the rear. Hoosier recommended in March I run with 2 degrees of negative camber in the front and 1 in the rear. I had my car aligned for this setup. With the four fronts I received 4, 5, 8 and 9 heat cycles before they corded badly on the outside. I ran pressures in the 43-47 range hot per Hoosier. I sent the tires back to Hoosier and they are recommending 3 degrees of camber based on the wear of my front tires. The rears seem OK with 1 to 1.5 though. I have more heat cycles on the rear and they are going strong - probably 10-15 cycles and they still have the wear indicators showing fairly deep. I will run in early June at Mid-America with the new set-up and let you know how they do this time around. I will use a Pyrometer to get some temps as well. If anyone has any other information on good setup with these tires, i.e. temps, camber, etc. please let me know.

Thanks!

JPhillips-998

MM,
You are running just about what I am and I have experienced the identical problem. I got 6 sessions on my fronts before they corded. Hoosier told me that Michelin tested at MO and experience 40% more wear w/the new surface....take that for what it is worth.

I was also told the "it is a new tire and we are trying to figure out the best set up as well"...I was also told to check the castor and camber settings.

I had the rears flipped on the rims after 6 sessions and they seem to be holding up.

This weekend is a Road America DE. I'll be running shaved toyos and will post a report.

DrJupeman

As for "telling" Hoosier, because of these cording issues I cancelled my S04 order and ordered a new set of MPSCs instead (mmm, new 235/18 size, finally!)...

wannabefaster

I'm not sure when they posted it but i just noticed that there ARE specific recommendations for the S04s posted on the hoosier website -

http://www.hoosierracingtire.com/TcT.pdf

Looks an awful lot like the recommendations for the S03 in terms of camber and pressure recomendations. In my case i was already following the recommendations.

The only problem with the MPSC 235x40x18 compared to the 245x35x18 Hoosiers is that they are an inch bigger in diameter ("25.4 vs 24.4") that's a 4% change in "gearing"...the wrong way for most of us.

Anybody know if any of the SCCA folk are having similar discussions?

wannabefaster

the date on the pdf is 4/5/04

Euro RS

Chris - you're right on the money with your Hoosier comment(s).

Look, at the end of the day Hoosier is a newcomer to the tire business. While Firestone, Goodyear and others have been investing in R&D for the past 100 years on the sands of Daytona and streets of LeMans, Hoosier apparently leaves the R&D to their customers. Its flat out dangerous. I guess we won't see F1 running Hoosiers for quite a while

I just put my new MPSC's on my car this afternoon for the 1,600 mile drive to Watkins Glen in two weeks. I might lose 1 second a lap (just means I gotta hang the car out a little more), but I do know one thing: when I come into the pits after each session the tires will be wearing even and they'll be plenty of meat left on them to run the entire Club Race weekend at Parade (unlike my SO4 nightmares at Road Atlanta, Daytona, and Laguna Seca in the past 45 days).

The easiest way to let Hoosier know we feel is simply buy a competitor's product.

DJF1

Yeap, that is exactly what I'm planning to do as well. Vote with my money... I too could not wait to try the S04's , not anymore.

Anyone has any thoughts on the new Avon tire from tirerack???? It looks awfully close to the S04 and with Avon's experience in racing it could be an option worth looking into as soon as sizes for us become available.

Geoffrey

I realize that there have been some unpleasant experiences with the new Hoosier tire, but perhaps I can offer another perspective. This is club level activity (DE, Racing, etc.) where we are our own driver, engineer, mechanic, designer, tire guy, data acquisition specialist, etc. The tasks required to run a race car are no different from professional teams except there is one person doing it all. I believe that it is our responsibility to select and ensure the components (tires in this case) work in our application and make any adjustments are required. This is a LOT of work and at times beyond the level of expertise of a basic mechanic. However, at the end of the day the development needs to be done to ensure a competitive product.

Hoosier has released a tire significantly different than its prior model in construction and design. Why wouldn't the chassis need to be set up differently? It is clear from others experiences that it may not be a bolt on and go tire, much the same as switching from Hoosier to MPSCs. Taking tire temps to ensure the chassis is setup properly should be the first thing that is done during the scrubbing in laps to get an idea of chassis setting that may need to be changed.

Granted Hoosier most definately has done some amount of testing and should have some general guidelines about the differences between the old tire and new dire from their testing but can they test every combination? And there may also be a problem with the tire. We've seen Khumos that don't like to be on the rear of heavy higher hp 911s, perhaps the Hoosier has similar problems. I know of some people that have had good success with the new Hoosier, but they also changed the chassis settings to match the requirements of the tire. For those who are sponsored by Hoosier, have you been working with them on feedback from their new tires? Perhaps this is another way Hooser can gain some information to help understand various combintations.

The bottom line is that we are responsible for our combination regardless of what component or manufacturer we use.

bauerjab

I could not more strongly disagree with the previous post. A tire is supposed to work for its intended purpose. Clearly, the SO4s do not.

Hoosier is a sponsor of Club Racing. Is it Hoosier's position that they are a proud sponsor for a tire which they know is going to put on 911's that, in my "amateur" opinion, does not work. Such a position is absurd on its face, just like that "Bulletin" they put on their website. Maybe in their "Bulletin" they also should tell the customer to buy three sets of Hoosiers in order to determine the proper set up. Hopefully after you've chorded the first two, you have determined the key appropriate set up. (Doubtul, but who knows)

When is the chording going to cause a major incident. The Glen Enduro is rapidly approaching. Is someone going to find out then?

Regarding the point that we are "amateurs," and therefore, the burden is on us to make sure our set up is correct, turns logic on its head. Precisely because we are amateurs and precisely because Hoosier knows this, it is Hoosier's burden to make a tire that can be run under various, albeit not extreme, conditions. At a minimum, Hoosier should tell us the appropriate set up.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why the Bulletin is vague. Hoosier does not know the proper set up. Maybe there isn't one.

Why didn't the SO3 have these problems. The answer is obvious. I could go on, but....

Just my two cents....