Jengah

Hi -

Any advice on which to get first? I'm sliding around in my stock seats and thinking that while 200TW tires would be nice for improved times, adding them first would just create more problems. My last instructor said he thought the next step in my improvement would be to get a more secure seat/harness system. Seems like I'd be able to get more enjoyment out of my car with being more planted, I'd be less fatigued, and learn more about pushing the limits of the car on my Michelin PS4S tires.

Thoughts?

zedcat

I did second set of wheels/ tires before roll bar/harness. I was regularly driving the car on the street at that time so that made sense for me- to save my nice oem wheels. I also did suspension mods for more neg camber before the bar/harness. I needed that to get tires to survive a reasonable duration. Nothing wrong with seats/bar/ harness earlier. Don't forget Hans/ Hybrid with the harness.

Zhao

Never understood the need for a seat and harness myself being something that prevents a person from being able to track drive so that was never on my list of stuff to buy.

Anything that makes you more consistent should be on your list though. If that's a seat, get a cheap seat like a sparco sprint, even a used one so you can also improve other stuff at the same time. I really really question needing a harness for consistency though. Also, pa fixed seat + a harness to me is a death trap without a roll cage. I guess if you're short that might not be a death sentence but with my height I don't want my head and spine to be a structural component of the car when it's upside down.

Tires are important imo if you're overheating and blistering your current tires, but if you're not you can probably wait a bit. 200tw tires will be more consistent and easier to learn on than 300 or 400tw stuff though and you should advance faster with with proper tires.

Brake pads and good fluid are high on my list of stuff. If you don't trust your brakes how are you going to be able to brake at the limit? you'll always be second guessing them. Being able to know you can brake 1 foot past the 2 marker and make the corner every single time is a huge advantage. Depends on your current pads but I don't even like my GT4 pads so I think a proper track pad is a good idea. Don't bother with changing rotors.

Being able to run enough camber saves money long term. For me that's around -3 upfront in most cars to get even tire wear (and about .5 less than whatever my front is in the rear) so that requires modication. depending on your car you might just be able to get -1.5 or more upfront with stock suspension so maybe just an alignment will be enough. People starting out barely need any camber but you're eventually going to kill tires like crazy without it.

ExMB

What has worked for some in the beginning is to move the seat one click further back, lo k the seatbelt and then move the tightened combo up one click. That or get a G-lock.

steveP911

FWIW. Cockpit Safety Upgrade - Black Friday trigger - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

I would graduate to 200tw tires and some camber, and then get into seats/harnesses once you have that settled. My two cents.

LuigiVampa

When I first started driving on track I was amazed at what a huge difference the G-loc made on my driving as it helped keep me in place.

When I graduated to my 944 with a half cage, race seat and harnesses, my driving improved further as I was not bracing myself with my knee against the door and holding the steering wheel in a death grip.

My only caveat is I am not a fan of harness bar unless you are confident in your roof structure should you roll over. I much prefer a bolt-in half cage to a harness bar.

Jengah

Thanks for all the current thoughts. Maybe I should have posted that I run in the advanced group. I’ve already got Ohlins coilovers, GT3 sway bars, drop links etc and a deliberate alignment.

Cuda911

To me, proper race seats and harness was a game changer. I cinch the harness as tight as possible. Then, I can feel every tiny aspect of the car's step-out. I use what I call the "hunting for grip" driving style.... "lost it... found it... lost it... found it."

Olemiss540

+2. I understanding not wanting to compromise a street car but if your instructor is telling you this it may be for a good reason. Being able to focus fully on the task at hand and FEEL fully the feedback being received as a result of your input is paramount to progress behind the wheel.

I'd say to get strapped in and then jump to 200TW or a dedicated set of wheels and 100TW tires asap. NT01s are fantastic for this hobby/sport of ours.

ldamelio

IMO, upgrade appropriate upgrade order (for street car) for both safety and progression in the sport:

1) Hybrid S or similar HANS for 3 points - safety first - you don't want your next car to be a sip and puff wheelchair or pine box
2) CG lock or similar- cheap and easy, partially eliminates the in-car yoga on turns
2) Upgrade brake fluid then pads and rotors after you use up OEM
3) Camber
4) 200 TW tires
5) Seats and half cage. As noted, harness bar alone makes for a roll over death trap.

Then upward and onward - 100 TW tires, more suspension work, tune, etc. After first four or five events, some simple video and data acquisition.

Jengah is an advanced driver with much of this already done. Time for the seats and half cage in his case.

docwyte

Depending on the car, most of the half "cages" are really glorified, over weight harness bars. If they're attaching to the stock seat belt mounting points, which most of them are, they're no better than a harness bar.

steveP911

Not sure I understand that or agree with you. How can you largely discount the effect of a full roofline rollbar just because it is bolted to the front belt mounting point, versus bolted through the floor? A great many of us do not want to drill permanent holes in our street/track cars just to produce a "racing" half-cage (and you really should have a full cage if you are racing, right?). Yes, the floor-bolted version is more secure, but in a worst-case rollover scenario would the belt-point rollbar front legs really fully break loose and then completely punch through the floor? Who knows, but I feel safer with what I have versus the three-point / no bar setup I had before. I am more concerned about offs resulting in non-rolled impacts, and I feel pretty sure that my new setup (TITAN MOTORSPORTS 996 / 997 PORSCHE ROLL BAR (HARNESS BAR)) will greatly improve my chances.

Honestly, I wish some people on this forum would be a little less absolute in their opinions and not announce them like they are indisputable facts.

Zhao

Some of those bolt in cages have been proven to be death traps and none of that stuff is allowed for racing. Does anyone ever tests that stuff before they sell it, and which ones are engineered properly and which ones are engineered on some guy's toilet?

Honestly, I like safety but some safety stuff I really question if it isn't of negative value. Cars are designed by armies of engineered, tested and crashed and are in large enough numbers even minor safety issues overlooked could become a huge loss for a company. They're extremely safe when you don't muck with them. Race cars get mucked with heavily, hence why they require a lot of added safety equipment. Street track cars should probably stick to the factory safety stuff and don't muck with that unless it is often a system that requires the whole system to be safe and is worse with just a portion of the system.

docwyte

Ok, where are your facts that it's actually going to hold up? As Zhao pointed out, none of them are tested or certified for use by any organization. They *all* don't use the standard mounting for the main hoop. I get it, I wouldn't want to punch holes in the floor of my 911 either, but at the same time I don't want to bet my life on two bolts, in shear, holding up if the car rolls on the track. There's pictures of a Mustang that rolled at Hallet where the rollbar punched through the floor and that rollbar *was* properly mounted through the floor of the car with sandwich plates. Yet the seat belt mounting is somehow better? Two bolts, in shear, that's all that's holding that main hoop up. Have you noticed that almost all the companies sell these call them harness bars instead of roll bars?

I'm happy that you're happy with it and feel confident in it. I wouldn't be and don't see the point of adding a 100lb harness bar to my car that adds minimal safety, if any.

John H

Do you want to go faster or faster safer?