What's the stance on tipping HPDE instructors?
12-02-2022, 01:44 PM
#76
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One's experience as a student has a lot to do with the instructor, for fairly obvious reasons. The student's experience also depends on their perspective, willingness to learn, and general attitude about the track experience. There are challenging instructors, and there are challenging students.
I've instructed and met student drivers who seemed to come to the track with preconceived notions about the track experience, and of their experience/abilities. I've seen/heard drivers express opinions about their driving that simply didn't match what was observed on track by experienced drivers and instructors. They might include notions about "performance driving" from their canyon driving / street racing / whatever, their success in other endeavors in life, etc. These drivers can require more guidance, more direct feedback and messaging, and sometimes a bit of "attitude adjustment" to be open to learning and to play well with others on track. I can imagine they might walk away from a track day feeling less positive about the experience if they don't like the feedback. It's on the instructor to be constructive in giving the feedback, and on the student to accept it.
As for the "most instructors suck" comments ... clubs are accountable for the quality of their instructors, for sure. PCA and other trackday clubs mostly have volunteer instructors (yeah I know, they get some benefits to incentivize ...) but the programs don't work without the instructors. If one expects professional-level instructors, they are available. Some clubs have only pro instructors at their events, and many also offer pro instruction as an option as their events. Or students can hire them privately. I believe many clubs accommodate this. To state the obvious, expecting pro level instruction at the trackday prices that PCA and other clubs typically offer, isn't realistic. Choose according to your preference and price tolerance.
I've instructed and met student drivers who seemed to come to the track with preconceived notions about the track experience, and of their experience/abilities. I've seen/heard drivers express opinions about their driving that simply didn't match what was observed on track by experienced drivers and instructors. They might include notions about "performance driving" from their canyon driving / street racing / whatever, their success in other endeavors in life, etc. These drivers can require more guidance, more direct feedback and messaging, and sometimes a bit of "attitude adjustment" to be open to learning and to play well with others on track. I can imagine they might walk away from a track day feeling less positive about the experience if they don't like the feedback. It's on the instructor to be constructive in giving the feedback, and on the student to accept it.
As for the "most instructors suck" comments ... clubs are accountable for the quality of their instructors, for sure. PCA and other trackday clubs mostly have volunteer instructors (yeah I know, they get some benefits to incentivize ...) but the programs don't work without the instructors. If one expects professional-level instructors, they are available. Some clubs have only pro instructors at their events, and many also offer pro instruction as an option as their events. Or students can hire them privately. I believe many clubs accommodate this. To state the obvious, expecting pro level instruction at the trackday prices that PCA and other clubs typically offer, isn't realistic. Choose according to your preference and price tolerance.
12-02-2022, 05:28 PM
#78
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12-02-2022, 05:58 PM
#79
Come on...the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't even real. The theory has been debunked.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
12-02-2022, 06:02 PM
#80
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Come on...the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't even real. The theory has been debunked.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
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12-02-2022, 06:36 PM
#82
Three Wheelin'
Whatever we choose to call it, there does seem to be a phenomenon whereby (some) drivers of modest experience/expertise over-estimate their abilities
Last edited by stownsen914; 12-02-2022 at 06:38 PM.
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ProCoach (12-03-2022)
12-02-2022, 06:54 PM
#84
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Interesting to read this thread and its devolution. I can't comment on Frank's primarily poor experiences with the majority of his instructors - perception I guess is reality insofar as any individual student is concerned. I can't personally imagine continuing to run with clubs or organizations that were so badly led/instructed - I'd have found a group that was more to my taste or standards. Maybe a professional racing school, or private professional coaching, or indeed self-teaching (gulp) if I deemed the instructor base so incompetent.
My personal experience instructing with PCA and BMWCCA is that there is certainly variability in instructors and always room for improvement - but the majority of my colleagues invest an enormous amount of energy and goodwill in our student's fun, progress and safety. And the vast majority of my students make amazing progress, to the extent that they are humble and self-aware enough to work with me - it being a 2-way street and all.
As for the comment 'If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.', that's half true. Bad drivers should not be promoted if they don't meet the promotion criteria. Yet there are some students that for a variety of reasons (aptitude, concentration, attitude, rigour, seriousness, even physical or health issues) may plateau and settle into a particular run group skill level. No amount of seat time or instruction will change that. And in the rarest of cases, it is a fact that perhaps HPDE is not a good fit for an individual.
I am constantly looking to improve my own skills as an instructor, and I'm a major proponent of applying promotion criteria fairly and objectively. I also find some of the observations inconsistent with my experience. Not offended, just have a different point of view.
Cheers
Matt
My personal experience instructing with PCA and BMWCCA is that there is certainly variability in instructors and always room for improvement - but the majority of my colleagues invest an enormous amount of energy and goodwill in our student's fun, progress and safety. And the vast majority of my students make amazing progress, to the extent that they are humble and self-aware enough to work with me - it being a 2-way street and all.
As for the comment 'If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.', that's half true. Bad drivers should not be promoted if they don't meet the promotion criteria. Yet there are some students that for a variety of reasons (aptitude, concentration, attitude, rigour, seriousness, even physical or health issues) may plateau and settle into a particular run group skill level. No amount of seat time or instruction will change that. And in the rarest of cases, it is a fact that perhaps HPDE is not a good fit for an individual.
I am constantly looking to improve my own skills as an instructor, and I'm a major proponent of applying promotion criteria fairly and objectively. I also find some of the observations inconsistent with my experience. Not offended, just have a different point of view.
Cheers
Matt
12-02-2022, 07:11 PM
#85
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12-02-2022, 07:44 PM
#86
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Come on...the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't even real. The theory has been debunked.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uger-isnt-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real
12-02-2022, 08:35 PM
#87
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Interesting to read this thread and its devolution. I can't comment on Frank's primarily poor experiences with the majority of his instructors - perception I guess is reality insofar as any individual student is concerned. I can't personally imagine continuing to run with clubs or organizations that were so badly led/instructed - I'd have found a group that was more to my taste or standards. Maybe a professional racing school, or private professional coaching, or indeed self-teaching (gulp) if I deemed the instructor base so incompetent.
My personal experience instructing with PCA and BMWCCA is that there is certainly variability in instructors and always room for improvement - but the majority of my colleagues invest an enormous amount of energy and goodwill in our student's fun, progress and safety. And the vast majority of my students make amazing progress, to the extent that they are humble and self-aware enough to work with me - it being a 2-way street and all.
As for the comment 'If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.', that's half true. Bad drivers should not be promoted if they don't meet the promotion criteria. Yet there are some students that for a variety of reasons (aptitude, concentration, attitude, rigour, seriousness, even physical or health issues) may plateau and settle into a particular run group skill level. No amount of seat time or instruction will change that. And in the rarest of cases, it is a fact that perhaps HPDE is not a good fit for an individual.
I am constantly looking to improve my own skills as an instructor, and I'm a major proponent of applying promotion criteria fairly and objectively. I also find some of the observations inconsistent with my experience. Not offended, just have a different point of view.
Cheers
Matt
My personal experience instructing with PCA and BMWCCA is that there is certainly variability in instructors and always room for improvement - but the majority of my colleagues invest an enormous amount of energy and goodwill in our student's fun, progress and safety. And the vast majority of my students make amazing progress, to the extent that they are humble and self-aware enough to work with me - it being a 2-way street and all.
As for the comment 'If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.', that's half true. Bad drivers should not be promoted if they don't meet the promotion criteria. Yet there are some students that for a variety of reasons (aptitude, concentration, attitude, rigour, seriousness, even physical or health issues) may plateau and settle into a particular run group skill level. No amount of seat time or instruction will change that. And in the rarest of cases, it is a fact that perhaps HPDE is not a good fit for an individual.
I am constantly looking to improve my own skills as an instructor, and I'm a major proponent of applying promotion criteria fairly and objectively. I also find some of the observations inconsistent with my experience. Not offended, just have a different point of view.
Cheers
Matt
Quote:
I can't personally imagine continuing to run with clubs or organizations that were so badly led/instructed - I'd have found a group that was more to my taste or standards. Maybe a professional racing school, or private professional coaching, or indeed self-teaching (gulp) if I deemed the instructor base so incompetent.
Response:
I agree, I left my home region for another region and am very happy having done so. I was given opportunities to advance and grow that were impossible in my former home region. In addition, I graduated from a professional school with the ability to obtain a license to race, which was never my intent, however the skills learned were invaluable.
Quote:
As for the comment 'If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.', that's half true. Bad drivers should not be promoted if they don't meet the promotion criteria. Yet there are some students that for a variety of reasons (aptitude, concentration, attitude, rigour, seriousness, even physical or health issues) may plateau and settle into a particular run group skill level. No amount of seat time or instruction will change that. And in the rarest of cases, it is a fact that perhaps HPDE is not a good fit for an individual.
Response:
Here is where we part company and we disagree in meaning:
- If a student starts out as a novice and progresses to an advanced novice, intermediate beginner or intermediate advanced and plateaus, that is not a failure. Everyone, the driver and the field are safe. No failure in this scenario. All will enjoy the sport at their level. I have known many drivers who never got past intermediate beginner or advanced and had a great time at events. That is not the definition of a bad driver in HPDE. They understood where they were in the field, if not they exit. A normal culling process.
- Stable (normal) folks should understand where they are in advancement process, if not that is what structure exists for. If they cannot accept where they are, then they move on to another venue that maybe will accommodate them, which is unfortunate due to lack of a standard testing process and the need for instructor recruitment.
- If a driver without the proper skills is permitted to advance, then that is instructor/process failure at the worst level. This is not a half truth, it is an absolute whole truth. It endangers the student and the field at large.
Regions, instructors can put their heads in the sand and attack the messenger, but in the end the sport will suffer. Its all so avoidable and preventable.
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12-03-2022, 01:12 PM
#88
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I thank you again for your thoughtful post and understanding of my comments that may have offended some. All I can offer is an idea to improve. Instead of only conducting instructor mentor meetings, The students in each run group have an ability to provide instructor feedback - real time. Hell, I can't buy a service online without having to participate in a survey. Driving Eval's are worthless as most students will not provide honest instructor feedback for fear of retribution. I gave instructors in my past great reviews, even though I thought otherwise. It is a broken system and frankly, it is too bad. Perhaps, some instructors should don a disguise and listen to the what students really think of their instructors, it is eye opening. I have been around long enough to separate the exaggerated self absorbed opinion of oneself to understand the frustration that folks have spoken to me about. That includes private emails regarding this thread.
Regions, instructors can put their heads in the sand and attack the messenger, but in the end the sport will suffer. Its all so avoidable and preventable.
Regions, instructors can put their heads in the sand and attack the messenger, but in the end the sport will suffer. Its all so avoidable and preventable.
CVR has a system of comment cards for both students and instructors, as you suggested above. At the driver's meeting all drivers are encouraged to speak with the track chair, asst. track chair, or chief instructor, if there are ANY issues. Sometimes its an issue with the driver, sometimes with the instructor, and others just a mismatch in personality. It gets fixed and we move on. This system of checks and balances works.
The paddock is mainly filled with A-type individuals so it is amazing, both at HPDE and races, that there isn't more chaos and conflict. Far from it, a spirit of camaraderie and esprit de corps seems to pervade in the paddock. Where else do you have competitors loaning each other parts and sharing a beer at the end of the day?
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12-03-2022, 02:02 PM
#89
Three Wheelin'
I also haven't heard of the sort of discontent that's being discussed in this thread. It would be unfortunate if it's the case that the instructor corps and their leadership are so out of touch with reality. I've been instructing for 25+ years, but admittedly I mostly show up and instruct, and don't have much to do with leadership or organization thereof.
12-03-2022, 02:08 PM
#90
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Some of what was said is SO FAR from what instructors are really all about.
If you’re running into ******** all day…..
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LuigiVampa (12-03-2022)