What's the stance on tipping HPDE instructors?
11-26-2022, 09:12 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by dgrobs
Yeah, agree totally. That’s a CVR thing, not an NNJR thing. What gives Luigi?
The following users liked this post:
LuigiVampa (11-26-2022)
11-26-2022, 11:35 AM
#62
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,565
Received 3,496 Likes
on
1,656 Posts
11-26-2022, 11:40 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
Helping single moms is the most true form of altruism.
11-26-2022, 11:46 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Here is a new acronym you can use, ID ten T
11-26-2022, 11:52 AM
#65
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,768
Received 2,919 Likes
on
1,710 Posts
Plus, you can probably write it all off!
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
11-26-2022, 11:54 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Norge911
Here is a new acronym you can use, ID ten T
11-26-2022, 11:59 AM
#67
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,565
Received 3,496 Likes
on
1,656 Posts
Unfortunately, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 severely limited the deductibility of entertainment expenses. Technically, most pure entertainment expenses, such as attending a sports event, theater, day at the track, or strip clubs, are no longer allowable deductions.
11-26-2022, 01:07 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,275
Received 1,484 Likes
on
1,030 Posts
Unfortunately, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 severely limited the deductibility of entertainment expenses. Technically, most pure entertainment expenses, such as attending a sports event, theater, day at the track, or strip clubs, are no longer allowable deductions.
12-01-2022, 07:53 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Not that I would ever defend what those CI’s said in that black mentor meeting, but they were not demeaning instructors, they were demeaning drivers. Regardless, it was disgusting and insulting.
You said that an instructor said that to you directly. You said it was your instructor who said that to no one but you. You are also clearly stating, whether you know it or not, that this particular instructor was an NNJR instructor. I’d love for you to pm me his name, but you won’t, and I will wouldn’t blame you one bit.
Ive been on track with you multiple times. Been behind you, been beside you, and been in front of you. Blue 911 or GT3, maybe a car number somewhere between 850 and 950. I have seen you drive numerous times, yes? Yeah, maybe you could be a bit more aware. So could I. Maybe you could be a bit more courteous coming up on slower cars. So could I. I have not seen any real issues with your driving, but it doesn’t matter. No instructor should ever talk to his student like that. Ever.
I have no idea why your instructor would have said that to you, regardless of how you drove as a student.
I can tell you for sure that the mentor meeting was a one off. Never seen it before and doubt I’ll ever see it again.
Why don’t you shoot me a pm with that instructors name. It will stay between us, and maybe I could even shed some light on what happened with you and him.
I can only think of 1, possibly 2, who may have said that to you, but even that’s a stretch. For you to take that broad brush and paint all of us that way, no dice. Our instructor core is top notch. Look at the drivers we turn out. I had many NNJR instructors coming up the ranks, and as much as I sucked as a student (and still do as a driver), I was never spoken to like you said you were. A broad brush can be a dangerous thing to paint with. While only a couple of us post here, most of us do lurk and read this forum regularly. You are knocking a very large group of NNJR instructors here, and 99% of us are caring, put the student first, keep the student safe, and want to teach type instructors.
Pm me. Who was it? Who said these things to you? Will 100% stay between me and you. Who was it?
You said that an instructor said that to you directly. You said it was your instructor who said that to no one but you. You are also clearly stating, whether you know it or not, that this particular instructor was an NNJR instructor. I’d love for you to pm me his name, but you won’t, and I will wouldn’t blame you one bit.
Ive been on track with you multiple times. Been behind you, been beside you, and been in front of you. Blue 911 or GT3, maybe a car number somewhere between 850 and 950. I have seen you drive numerous times, yes? Yeah, maybe you could be a bit more aware. So could I. Maybe you could be a bit more courteous coming up on slower cars. So could I. I have not seen any real issues with your driving, but it doesn’t matter. No instructor should ever talk to his student like that. Ever.
I have no idea why your instructor would have said that to you, regardless of how you drove as a student.
I can tell you for sure that the mentor meeting was a one off. Never seen it before and doubt I’ll ever see it again.
Why don’t you shoot me a pm with that instructors name. It will stay between us, and maybe I could even shed some light on what happened with you and him.
I can only think of 1, possibly 2, who may have said that to you, but even that’s a stretch. For you to take that broad brush and paint all of us that way, no dice. Our instructor core is top notch. Look at the drivers we turn out. I had many NNJR instructors coming up the ranks, and as much as I sucked as a student (and still do as a driver), I was never spoken to like you said you were. A broad brush can be a dangerous thing to paint with. While only a couple of us post here, most of us do lurk and read this forum regularly. You are knocking a very large group of NNJR instructors here, and 99% of us are caring, put the student first, keep the student safe, and want to teach type instructors.
Pm me. Who was it? Who said these things to you? Will 100% stay between me and you. Who was it?
<<You said that an instructor said that to you directly. You said it was your instructor who said that to no one but you. You are also clearly stating, whether you know it or not, that this particular instructor was an NNJR instructor. I’d love for you to pm me his name, but you won’t, and I will wouldn’t blame you one bit.>>
Let me clarify, I was at a NNJR event, I was a novice. The instructor was not a NNJR region instructor, however at the time there was no way someone on track for the first time could have ever known this.
<<Been behind you, been beside you, and been in front of you. Blue 911 or GT3, maybe a car number somewhere between 850 and 950. I have seen you drive numerous times, yes? Yeah, maybe you could be a bit more aware. So could I. Maybe you could be a bit more courteous coming up on slower cars. So could I. I have not seen any real issues with your driving, but it doesn’t matter. No instructor should ever talk to his student like that.>> Agreed!
There is no point in casting aspersions, I met up fortuitously with this instructor in 2022, many years after this encounter. All is good, but my view of DE instructors as a "whole" has not changed. I stand by my views previously expressed. If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.
I would guess that I have had many more hours of professional instruction in aircraft and cars than a couple of dozen DE drivers combined on this forum. I know the difference between good and not so good instruction. When a student failed a check ride for his/her pilot certificate, it was never the student's fault. The FAA viewed it as a failing grade for the instructor. IMO, that is the way it should be.
Since I have come up through the ranks of both NNJR and NY Metro and have experienced everything from great and inspiring instructors (less than 5%) to a going through the motions (about 50%) to downright incompetent instructors (45%), I think I am qualified to opine. Because I am trained as a pilot, I keep exacting logs of every instructional class whether it be for flying an airplane or driving on track. I wish it were not so.
12-01-2022, 08:13 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,275
Received 1,484 Likes
on
1,030 Posts
my view of DE instructors as a "whole" has not changed. I stand by my views previously expressed. If poor drivers exist and have come up through the ranks, it is the instructor's responsibility for the failure, not the student.
Since I have come up through the ranks of both NNJR and NY Metro and have experienced everything from great and inspiring instructors (less than 5%) to a going through the motions (about 50%) to downright incompetent instructors (45%), I think I am qualified to opine.
50% are just going though the motions? That’s 95% if my math is correct, yes?
I came up the same ranks as you with some Niagara thrown in. You’re experience and mine were very different though. Matter of fact, they couldn’t be more different.
You are saying that 95% of PCA instructors downright suck at instructing. I 100% disagree with that. 95% of instructors you had either sucked, didn’t care, or worse? I gotta question whether the problem was the instructors at all. 95% of the instructors you had at PCA DE’s sucked or didn’t care?
I can honestly say that 95% of my instructors were awesome and taught me and cared and made me the driver I am today. They also made me the instructor I am today, and last I heard, I don’t suck at it, or I hope I don’t, and I know for a fact that I care to teach and help every student I ever had.
Guess I’m in your 5%.
The following 3 users liked this post by ldamelio:
12-02-2022, 11:53 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,275
Received 1,484 Likes
on
1,030 Posts
12-02-2022, 12:34 PM
#74
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,565
Received 3,496 Likes
on
1,656 Posts
Somehow this thread devolved into a conversation about instructors. What a shock that the topic shifts!
I think most issues start with unrealistic driver attitudes towards promotions. Driving a new higher horsepower car, with all the nannies on, and flooring it on the straights, does not make someone a fast driver.
There are regions that promote largely based on how many track days someone attends, and these drivers progress all the way up to instructor level, without the proper skillset. How can these regions ever hope to produce effective instructors?
When I first started out I very much wanted to get the instructor out of my car so I could drive solo. I think it is an incredibly common desire with new drivers. Now I pay large sums of money to professional coaches to help me drive better. That's irony.
Driver's need to realize that promotions are earned and instructors need to help them earn those promotions. This will produce competent drivers, which will in turn produce quality instructors. Unfortunately, ego, and the desire to get a higher car count, get in the way of rational promotions.
I think most issues start with unrealistic driver attitudes towards promotions. Driving a new higher horsepower car, with all the nannies on, and flooring it on the straights, does not make someone a fast driver.
There are regions that promote largely based on how many track days someone attends, and these drivers progress all the way up to instructor level, without the proper skillset. How can these regions ever hope to produce effective instructors?
When I first started out I very much wanted to get the instructor out of my car so I could drive solo. I think it is an incredibly common desire with new drivers. Now I pay large sums of money to professional coaches to help me drive better. That's irony.
Driver's need to realize that promotions are earned and instructors need to help them earn those promotions. This will produce competent drivers, which will in turn produce quality instructors. Unfortunately, ego, and the desire to get a higher car count, get in the way of rational promotions.
12-02-2022, 01:41 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
One's experience as a student has a lot to do with the instructor, for fairly obvious reasons. The student's experience also depends on their perspective, willingness to learn, and general attitude about the track experience. There are challenging instructors, and there are challenging students.
I've instructed and met student drivers who seemed to come to the track with preconceived notions about the track experience, and of their experience/abilities. I've seen/heard drivers express opinions about their driving that simply didn't match what was observed on track by experienced drivers and instructors. They might include notions about "performance driving" from their canyon driving / street racing / whatever, their success in other endeavors in life, etc. These drivers can require more guidance, more direct feedback and messaging, and sometimes a bit of "attitude adjustment" to be open to learning and to play well with others on track. I can imagine they might walk away from a track day feeling less positive about the experience if they don't like the feedback. It's on the instructor to be constructive in giving the feedback, and on the student to accept it.
As for the "most instructors suck" comments ... clubs are accountable for the quality of their instructors, for sure. PCA and other trackday clubs mostly have volunteer instructors (yeah I know, they get some benefits to incentivize ...) but the programs don't work without the instructors. If one expects professional-level instructors, they are available. Some clubs have only pro instructors at their events, and many also offer pro instruction as an option as their events. Or students can hire them privately. I believe many clubs accommodate this. To state the obvious, expecting pro level instruction at the trackday prices that PCA and other clubs typically offer, isn't realistic. Choose according to your preference and price tolerance.
I've instructed and met student drivers who seemed to come to the track with preconceived notions about the track experience, and of their experience/abilities. I've seen/heard drivers express opinions about their driving that simply didn't match what was observed on track by experienced drivers and instructors. They might include notions about "performance driving" from their canyon driving / street racing / whatever, their success in other endeavors in life, etc. These drivers can require more guidance, more direct feedback and messaging, and sometimes a bit of "attitude adjustment" to be open to learning and to play well with others on track. I can imagine they might walk away from a track day feeling less positive about the experience if they don't like the feedback. It's on the instructor to be constructive in giving the feedback, and on the student to accept it.
As for the "most instructors suck" comments ... clubs are accountable for the quality of their instructors, for sure. PCA and other trackday clubs mostly have volunteer instructors (yeah I know, they get some benefits to incentivize ...) but the programs don't work without the instructors. If one expects professional-level instructors, they are available. Some clubs have only pro instructors at their events, and many also offer pro instruction as an option as their events. Or students can hire them privately. I believe many clubs accommodate this. To state the obvious, expecting pro level instruction at the trackday prices that PCA and other clubs typically offer, isn't realistic. Choose according to your preference and price tolerance.
Last edited by stownsen914; 12-02-2022 at 01:43 PM.
The following 6 users liked this post by stownsen914:
9114609048 (12-02-2022),
dgrobs (12-03-2022),
ExMB (12-02-2022),
ldamelio (12-02-2022),
ProCoach (12-02-2022),
and 1 others liked this post.