Extra wheels/tires for novice student?
05-07-2004, 11:24 AM
#16
Race Director
I will go along with the street tire deal for all of the reasons stated.
Stock wheels on 951's
86-88 (non s)
16x7 and 16x8
88 S and 89
16 x7 and 16 x9
Stock turbo S tires are 225/50 16 and 245/45 16
So 17 x7.5 are just fine, but a set of 16x8 PD will allow for 245/45 at each corner and allow for rotataion to get the most tire life and the best balance. tracked 951's tend to wear the fronts more. The fiske's are nice, but probably overkill.
I know Z-man runs 245's at all corners on his S2 and I run 225s on all corners on my NA 944-spec. I think 245's at all corners are the way to go. these cars have some understeer built in and even tires are pretty good. Remember the cars are really close to 50/50 weight balance.
Slap another set of street tires on the wheels Drive to and from the track on them and use you normal street tires on the road. Nice thing about this is that you don't beat up you road tires on the track.
When the time is right you can always go R-tires or if needed sell these wheels if you want to get out.
Stock wheels on 951's
86-88 (non s)
16x7 and 16x8
88 S and 89
16 x7 and 16 x9
Stock turbo S tires are 225/50 16 and 245/45 16
So 17 x7.5 are just fine, but a set of 16x8 PD will allow for 245/45 at each corner and allow for rotataion to get the most tire life and the best balance. tracked 951's tend to wear the fronts more. The fiske's are nice, but probably overkill.
I know Z-man runs 245's at all corners on his S2 and I run 225s on all corners on my NA 944-spec. I think 245's at all corners are the way to go. these cars have some understeer built in and even tires are pretty good. Remember the cars are really close to 50/50 weight balance.
Slap another set of street tires on the wheels Drive to and from the track on them and use you normal street tires on the road. Nice thing about this is that you don't beat up you road tires on the track.
When the time is right you can always go R-tires or if needed sell these wheels if you want to get out.
05-07-2004, 11:43 AM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, those wheels were off of an 87 911. I agree that the Fikse win in the cosmetics department, but that isn't what I am looking for. If I wanted cosmetics, I would buy a set in the race black :drool:.
I might do some more research into whether I should go 16x7F/16x8R (stock) or 16x8 all around.
From what I understand, it is a balanced handling car from a weight distribution perspective, but that it left the factory designed to understeer (as all passenger cars are designed), thus the extra inch of width up front aids in creating a better handling track car. Maybe that is incorrect, but that is what I have heard.
I'll probably check over at the 944/951 boards.
Thanks,
Max
I might do some more research into whether I should go 16x7F/16x8R (stock) or 16x8 all around.
From what I understand, it is a balanced handling car from a weight distribution perspective, but that it left the factory designed to understeer (as all passenger cars are designed), thus the extra inch of width up front aids in creating a better handling track car. Maybe that is incorrect, but that is what I have heard.
I'll probably check over at the 944/951 boards.
Thanks,
Max
05-07-2004, 07:36 PM
#18
One thing I started to think about back when I had extra wheels. Decent trackable street tires were about $80-90 each. R-tires were about $150 ea. Did it make sense to buy a tire that cost twice as much and didn't really last as long to save wear and tear on a cheaper tire? Maybe I'm too slow but I never had problems with my street tires on the track and at DE, time really isn't important. It is just for our own amusement after all. So what if you're a little slower, you can still learn just as much.
05-07-2004, 07:45 PM
#19
Race Director
Originally posted by Tom
Decent trackable street tires were about $80-90 each. R-tires were about $150 ea. Did it make sense to buy a tire that cost twice as much and didn't really last as long to save wear and tear on a cheaper tire?
Decent trackable street tires were about $80-90 each. R-tires were about $150 ea. Did it make sense to buy a tire that cost twice as much and didn't really last as long to save wear and tear on a cheaper tire?
PS... Still advocating street tires!
05-07-2004, 07:50 PM
#20
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC - One headlight capital of the world
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
10 Posts
Ditto.
Much is to be learned about car control on talkative street tires! 
Plus, it's so much fun whipping the car around...
We're all learning all the time, and when you feel you've mastered the art of handling your machine at the limit on streets, then you can jump to the R's and begin a whole new exploration process.
As for extra wheels, I'd get a set if the deal is too good to pass up. You can always use them for spares if you blow a flat or start getting down to the wear bars...
I'm glad you're having a blast!
Plus, it's so much fun whipping the car around...We're all learning all the time, and when you feel you've mastered the art of handling your machine at the limit on streets, then you can jump to the R's and begin a whole new exploration process.
As for extra wheels, I'd get a set if the deal is too good to pass up. You can always use them for spares if you blow a flat or start getting down to the wear bars...
I'm glad you're having a blast!
05-07-2004, 08:18 PM
#21
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max:
I ran a set of all 16x8 on my 944S (with an S2 motor) for autocross, using Victoracer 245/45 tires all around. If the car is lowered, the 8 inch fronts will necessitate running a good 2 degrees of camber or so, but if you are running the car on the track you will want that anyway. I have since sold that set as I've retired the 944 from autocrossing after getting a 993, but I would highly recommend that set-up for a track set. The additional width in the front makes for great turn-in in a car that needs grip in the front because the weight of the engine is also up there. To the extent this changes the balance of the car a little it isn't as though you can't make other changes to the set-up to offset this, and having the potential for more grip in front is good.
The best thing of all with this set-up, however, as MY58 said, is that you can rotate the tires front to rear to balance the wear. If, as seems to be your case where you are starting out, you want the track tires to last a long time (vs. throwing them out after they've had a few heat cycles), being able to rotate in this way can really help extend the life of the tires. My experience also was that the fronts would wear faster.
Although I would agree with everyone here that starting out on street tires is a good idea, once you are pretty comfortable and fast on those tires, I don't see a reason not to switch to the track tires fairly soon, assuming you've taken care of the safety requirements first. It is not as though all learning ceases when you are on track tires. In fact, the track tires are fairly different than street tires in the way they like to be driven (they don't like as much slip angle). I realize this may put me in the minority here, but I think once you are turning in very fast lap times for street tires I think it is time to move to the R-compound tires. If you are going to the track just to learn to drive better, then street tires are fine. If you are trying to get the real race-car-on-a-track experience then the R-compound tires really help. All the suspension mods you can do to a car will probably have less impact on the car's handling than the addition of R-compound tires, so in my mind after the safety gear the R-compound tires are the next sensible upgrade. Just my 0.02. I don't really disagree with what's been said by the others here.
I ran a set of all 16x8 on my 944S (with an S2 motor) for autocross, using Victoracer 245/45 tires all around. If the car is lowered, the 8 inch fronts will necessitate running a good 2 degrees of camber or so, but if you are running the car on the track you will want that anyway. I have since sold that set as I've retired the 944 from autocrossing after getting a 993, but I would highly recommend that set-up for a track set. The additional width in the front makes for great turn-in in a car that needs grip in the front because the weight of the engine is also up there. To the extent this changes the balance of the car a little it isn't as though you can't make other changes to the set-up to offset this, and having the potential for more grip in front is good.
The best thing of all with this set-up, however, as MY58 said, is that you can rotate the tires front to rear to balance the wear. If, as seems to be your case where you are starting out, you want the track tires to last a long time (vs. throwing them out after they've had a few heat cycles), being able to rotate in this way can really help extend the life of the tires. My experience also was that the fronts would wear faster.
Although I would agree with everyone here that starting out on street tires is a good idea, once you are pretty comfortable and fast on those tires, I don't see a reason not to switch to the track tires fairly soon, assuming you've taken care of the safety requirements first. It is not as though all learning ceases when you are on track tires. In fact, the track tires are fairly different than street tires in the way they like to be driven (they don't like as much slip angle). I realize this may put me in the minority here, but I think once you are turning in very fast lap times for street tires I think it is time to move to the R-compound tires. If you are going to the track just to learn to drive better, then street tires are fine. If you are trying to get the real race-car-on-a-track experience then the R-compound tires really help. All the suspension mods you can do to a car will probably have less impact on the car's handling than the addition of R-compound tires, so in my mind after the safety gear the R-compound tires are the next sensible upgrade. Just my 0.02. I don't really disagree with what's been said by the others here.
05-08-2004, 10:23 AM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hey All;
Personally, I switched to R-compound tires when I got bored. I was losing interest in going to the track - at least as it pertained to the driving part - because I was driving at about 60%, could not go any faster, and was simply ripping up rubber. At a much later date, I upgraded to a full coilover suspension for the exact same reason.
As I said before, if your goal is to learn car control, stay on street tires. When you have learned those lessons, you will be ready for Rs. Then you can learn about them, hopefully without killing yourself! Anybody can buy Rs, but not all of them can use them, and they are not the right choice for learning car control.
I have used all manner of setups over the years, some by choice, some not. I have predominantly used 8s with 245s all around. I have also used for short periods of time; 7s & 8s with 205/225, 205/245, 225/225, & 225/245 (I even used 245 front & 205 rear once to get some more oversteer for an autocross!). Depending on the track, you will not notice much difference.
At a flowing track like WGI you do not necessarily need the bigger front rubber. The more you move up the scale in athleticism of the corners, the more they help. Mosport, then VIR, then Lime Rock, then Mid Ohio, require progressively more muscle to negotiate, and the extra grip can be helpful.
Max, I'd get the PDs for track, look to get four 8s, and only buy the Fikses if I wanted show wheels, or for profitable resale/trade.
Personally, I switched to R-compound tires when I got bored. I was losing interest in going to the track - at least as it pertained to the driving part - because I was driving at about 60%, could not go any faster, and was simply ripping up rubber. At a much later date, I upgraded to a full coilover suspension for the exact same reason.
As I said before, if your goal is to learn car control, stay on street tires. When you have learned those lessons, you will be ready for Rs. Then you can learn about them, hopefully without killing yourself! Anybody can buy Rs, but not all of them can use them, and they are not the right choice for learning car control.
I have used all manner of setups over the years, some by choice, some not. I have predominantly used 8s with 245s all around. I have also used for short periods of time; 7s & 8s with 205/225, 205/245, 225/225, & 225/245 (I even used 245 front & 205 rear once to get some more oversteer for an autocross!). Depending on the track, you will not notice much difference.
At a flowing track like WGI you do not necessarily need the bigger front rubber. The more you move up the scale in athleticism of the corners, the more they help. Mosport, then VIR, then Lime Rock, then Mid Ohio, require progressively more muscle to negotiate, and the extra grip can be helpful.
Max, I'd get the PDs for track, look to get four 8s, and only buy the Fikses if I wanted show wheels, or for profitable resale/trade.
05-08-2004, 01:33 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NE Kansas
Posts: 1,839
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only offer this advise since all has been discussed.
MODIFY when your skills warrant it, no sooner, make the next up grade and improve to the next level add more up grade and move on etc,etc. You will know when like Redlineman stated.....got bored meaning he progressed beyond the cars ability at that time. No sense in tearing up race tires and cash for DE because you are not going to WIN anyway! lol...! Oh and anytime you can keep away from tire size stagger is a good thing! GL! Dal
MODIFY when your skills warrant it, no sooner, make the next up grade and improve to the next level add more up grade and move on etc,etc. You will know when like Redlineman stated.....got bored meaning he progressed beyond the cars ability at that time. No sense in tearing up race tires and cash for DE because you are not going to WIN anyway! lol...! Oh and anytime you can keep away from tire size stagger is a good thing! GL! Dal
05-10-2004, 12:27 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do know that the 86 951 has an unusual offset? Make sure the wheels will fit and if they will buy them. It is a well know fact that when you want them they won't be available and you will have to custom order a set of wheels
05-10-2004, 12:43 PM
#25
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I'm not going to go R-compound any time soon. I had heard some conflicting advise originally, but I am convinced that Rs are not in my near future.
About the extra set of wheels, I am leaning towards the PDs because of the good price and the fact that they are 16x8s all around. I would use them as a track wheel not so much for better tires but as a backup in case I get a puncture and so I can keep my Fuchs in nice show condition.
Mitch, yes they are ET23. I know the 86 951 has an odd offset and both the Fikses and PDs are 23.3mm.
About modifying my car, it was modded slightly as I purchased it with a chip, higher boost and some sways. It also has all of the safety mods short of a full cage and fire system. The only mods I see in the near future are for reliability (additional oil cooler and better fuel lines). Past that, I will look into running Rs and probably coil overs all around....but that won't be for a few years I imagine.
Anyone have recommendations on tires for the extra set of wheels? They BFG R compounds on them now with 2 wknds left. Those will be replaced and will hang from my ceiling (making my garage look fast). I currently have Kuhmo 712 because the PO had an extra fresh set that he gave me. I have heard Yoko ES100 are a good price/performance compromise. Any more sage advice?
Thanks everyone...you all rock...drive safely!
Max
About the extra set of wheels, I am leaning towards the PDs because of the good price and the fact that they are 16x8s all around. I would use them as a track wheel not so much for better tires but as a backup in case I get a puncture and so I can keep my Fuchs in nice show condition.
Mitch, yes they are ET23. I know the 86 951 has an odd offset and both the Fikses and PDs are 23.3mm.
About modifying my car, it was modded slightly as I purchased it with a chip, higher boost and some sways. It also has all of the safety mods short of a full cage and fire system. The only mods I see in the near future are for reliability (additional oil cooler and better fuel lines). Past that, I will look into running Rs and probably coil overs all around....but that won't be for a few years I imagine.
Anyone have recommendations on tires for the extra set of wheels? They BFG R compounds on them now with 2 wknds left. Those will be replaced and will hang from my ceiling (making my garage look fast). I currently have Kuhmo 712 because the PO had an extra fresh set that he gave me. I have heard Yoko ES100 are a good price/performance compromise. Any more sage advice?
Thanks everyone...you all rock...drive safely!
Max
05-10-2004, 03:57 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max- I'm glad you asked that question (Kumho 712s v. Yoko ES100s) because I've wondered the same thing. I haven't asked yet because I've still got plenty of meat left on my Kumhos.
Re: Winning at DE-
I've heard someone say that you "win" at DE when you can drive your car home in (relatively) the same condition as you brought it.
Re: Winning at DE-
I've heard someone say that you "win" at DE when you can drive your car home in (relatively) the same condition as you brought it.
