F1 cancels 2022 Russian Grand Prix
03-05-2022, 01:10 PM
#61
First. The main point in my post was underlined to make it simple for readers to find. Apparently, that wasn’t simple enough for everyone. For those who missed my point, here it is again: “U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs?” My point is in accordance with the overall subject of this thread.
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
There has been little or no honest debate or discussion in the U.S. about the root cause(s) of the ongoing 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Instead, our media acts like this entire conflict started 2 weeks ago. Honest debate and discussions have been replaced by overt (largely pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian) propaganda meant for consumption by western audiences, including recent video game clips of a Ukrainian “fighter ace”, photos of a Ukrainian beauty queen posing with a toy Airsoft rifle preparing to repel the invaders, a nuclear power plant in imminent danger of being bombed and shelled into a pile of glowing rubble by the invading barbarian hordes who don’t comprehend atomic hazards, short graphic war video clips with no context, and numerous interpretations of events, which later prove to be false. The Russian propaganda campaign has been focused on justifying the invasion, downplaying events, suppressing protests and controlling information about military operations.
Putin claims that Zelenskyy is a western puppet and that Ukraine committed atrocities against the ethnic Russian minority in the Donbass region. Zelenskyy claims that Putin is a genocidal maniac and Russia is committing atrocities in Ukraine. As in every war, the propaganda campaign on all sides has been enormous and relentless. The only certainty is that both Putin and Zelenskyy are looking out for their best interests, while the citizens and armed forces of both countries suffer the consequences.
In the U.S., we haven’t addressed the causes of the 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict in any substantive way. Instead, there’s been non-stop recitations (of the standardized bi-partisan neocon talking points) about all the ways we’ll punish Russia for its transgressions. There’s been almost no self-reflection about the series of provocations, since the end of the Cold War in 1991, that have led up to this predictable conflict (primarily Russian security concerns about NATO’s persistent expansion east over the past 30 years).
That’s my brief (and far off-topic) perspective regarding this very complicated Russo-Ukrainian conflict.
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
There has been little or no honest debate or discussion in the U.S. about the root cause(s) of the ongoing 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Instead, our media acts like this entire conflict started 2 weeks ago. Honest debate and discussions have been replaced by overt (largely pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian) propaganda meant for consumption by western audiences, including recent video game clips of a Ukrainian “fighter ace”, photos of a Ukrainian beauty queen posing with a toy Airsoft rifle preparing to repel the invaders, a nuclear power plant in imminent danger of being bombed and shelled into a pile of glowing rubble by the invading barbarian hordes who don’t comprehend atomic hazards, short graphic war video clips with no context, and numerous interpretations of events, which later prove to be false. The Russian propaganda campaign has been focused on justifying the invasion, downplaying events, suppressing protests and controlling information about military operations.
Putin claims that Zelenskyy is a western puppet and that Ukraine committed atrocities against the ethnic Russian minority in the Donbass region. Zelenskyy claims that Putin is a genocidal maniac and Russia is committing atrocities in Ukraine. As in every war, the propaganda campaign on all sides has been enormous and relentless. The only certainty is that both Putin and Zelenskyy are looking out for their best interests, while the citizens and armed forces of both countries suffer the consequences.
In the U.S., we haven’t addressed the causes of the 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict in any substantive way. Instead, there’s been non-stop recitations (of the standardized bi-partisan neocon talking points) about all the ways we’ll punish Russia for its transgressions. There’s been almost no self-reflection about the series of provocations, since the end of the Cold War in 1991, that have led up to this predictable conflict (primarily Russian security concerns about NATO’s persistent expansion east over the past 30 years).
That’s my brief (and far off-topic) perspective regarding this very complicated Russo-Ukrainian conflict.
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03-05-2022, 01:33 PM
#62
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First. The main point in my post was underlined to make it simple for readers to find. Apparently, that wasn’t simple enough for everyone. For those who missed my point, here it is again: “U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs?” My point is in accordance with the overall subject of this thread.
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
There has been little or no honest debate or discussion in the U.S. about the root cause(s) of the ongoing 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Instead, our media acts like this entire conflict started 2 weeks ago. Honest debate and discussions have been replaced by overt (largely pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian) propaganda meant for consumption by western audiences, including recent video game clips of a Ukrainian “fighter ace”, photos of a Ukrainian beauty queen posing with a toy Airsoft rifle preparing to repel the invaders, a nuclear power plant in imminent danger of being bombed and shelled into a pile of glowing rubble by the invading barbarian hordes who don’t comprehend atomic hazards, short graphic war video clips with no context, and numerous interpretations of events, which later prove to be false. The Russian propaganda campaign has been focused on justifying the invasion, downplaying events, suppressing protests and controlling information about military operations.
Putin claims that Zelenskyy is a western puppet and that Ukraine committed atrocities against the ethnic Russian minority in the Donbass region. Zelenskyy claims that Putin is a genocidal maniac and Russia is committing atrocities in Ukraine. As in every war, the propaganda campaign on all sides has been enormous and relentless. The only certainty is that both Putin and Zelenskyy are looking out for their best interests, while the citizens and armed forces of both countries suffer the consequences.
In the U.S., we haven’t addressed the causes of the 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict in any substantive way. Instead, there’s been non-stop recitations (of the standardized bi-partisan neocon talking points) about all the ways we’ll punish Russia for its transgressions. There’s been almost no self-reflection about the series of provocations, since the end of the Cold War in 1991, that have led up to this predictable conflict (primarily Russian security concerns about NATO’s persistent expansion east over the past 30 years).
That’s my brief (and far off-topic) perspective regarding this very complicated Russo-Ukrainian conflict.
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
There has been little or no honest debate or discussion in the U.S. about the root cause(s) of the ongoing 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Instead, our media acts like this entire conflict started 2 weeks ago. Honest debate and discussions have been replaced by overt (largely pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian) propaganda meant for consumption by western audiences, including recent video game clips of a Ukrainian “fighter ace”, photos of a Ukrainian beauty queen posing with a toy Airsoft rifle preparing to repel the invaders, a nuclear power plant in imminent danger of being bombed and shelled into a pile of glowing rubble by the invading barbarian hordes who don’t comprehend atomic hazards, short graphic war video clips with no context, and numerous interpretations of events, which later prove to be false. The Russian propaganda campaign has been focused on justifying the invasion, downplaying events, suppressing protests and controlling information about military operations.
Putin claims that Zelenskyy is a western puppet and that Ukraine committed atrocities against the ethnic Russian minority in the Donbass region. Zelenskyy claims that Putin is a genocidal maniac and Russia is committing atrocities in Ukraine. As in every war, the propaganda campaign on all sides has been enormous and relentless. The only certainty is that both Putin and Zelenskyy are looking out for their best interests, while the citizens and armed forces of both countries suffer the consequences.
In the U.S., we haven’t addressed the causes of the 8-year Russo-Ukrainian conflict in any substantive way. Instead, there’s been non-stop recitations (of the standardized bi-partisan neocon talking points) about all the ways we’ll punish Russia for its transgressions. There’s been almost no self-reflection about the series of provocations, since the end of the Cold War in 1991, that have led up to this predictable conflict (primarily Russian security concerns about NATO’s persistent expansion east over the past 30 years).
That’s my brief (and far off-topic) perspective regarding this very complicated Russo-Ukrainian conflict.
03-06-2022, 10:20 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
This thread contains a lot more emotional thinking than critical thinking.
I’m a U.S. Army combat veteran who proudly (and voluntarily) served my country for many years. All Soldiers fight where we’re told, that’s our lot in life. However, that doesn’t mean we’re all a bunch of mindless drones who can’t recognize hypocrisy when we see it.
As the old saying goes, “people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.” Before condemning Russia’s actions in Ukraine, let’s review some examples of questionable U.S. aggression abroad over the past two decades. Bush’s 2003 invasion of Iraq was unjust, because the premises for war (Iraq possessing WMDs and having ties to Al Qaeda and 9/11) were false. We caused a substantial amount of unnecessary U.S. and Iraqi deaths, destruction and human suffering over this “mistake”. Obama’s violent 2011 overthrow of Libya’s government, his attempted 2012 violent overthrow of Syria’s government, and his routine extrajudicial drone killings, were hardly in keeping with the spirit of his Nobel Peace Prize. Biden’s more recent 2021 missile strike on an innocent family of 10 (3 adults and 7 children) in Afghanistan wasn’t our finest moment either. These are merely a few better-known examples of our government’s misdeeds abroad over the past two decades, but the list goes on and on and on… Yet, despite the U.S. government’s almost continuous series of undeclared wars, overt or covert regime changes, targeted killings, and other military and/or CIA interventions overseas, I don’t recall the U.S. Grand Prix ever being cancelled by the FIA, or any U.S. drivers or athletes being banned from international competitions.
In other words, U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs? Please think about this question critically, and offer some logical reasons why this clear international double standard is justified in your minds (and please come up with an argument better than: “The U.S. means well when we invade other countries, overthrow their governments and kill innocent people under false pretenses, because we’re the good guys and they hate us for our freedoms!”).
I look forward to reading some well-reasoned responses.
P.S.: My reference for the definitions of just and unjust wars are found in “Summa Theologica” by Thomas Aquinas. Of course, countries that wage wars always find ways to justify them.
P.P.S.: Many adult children of U.S. politicians seem to meet the definition of “oligarchs” too (or “princelings” as the Chinese call them). Somehow, the sons and daughters of our politicians routinely get selected for highly-sought-after, well-compensated positions on corporate boards all around the world, and/or awarded lucrative international business deals, consulting deals, art deals, book deals, real estate deals, stock deals, financial deals, etc., etc., etc. These political families amass great wealth through influence peddling and sweetheart deals, but just because they’re not called “oligarchs” here, doesn’t make them less than so. There’s no denying this blatant hypocrisy either.
I’m a U.S. Army combat veteran who proudly (and voluntarily) served my country for many years. All Soldiers fight where we’re told, that’s our lot in life. However, that doesn’t mean we’re all a bunch of mindless drones who can’t recognize hypocrisy when we see it.
As the old saying goes, “people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.” Before condemning Russia’s actions in Ukraine, let’s review some examples of questionable U.S. aggression abroad over the past two decades. Bush’s 2003 invasion of Iraq was unjust, because the premises for war (Iraq possessing WMDs and having ties to Al Qaeda and 9/11) were false. We caused a substantial amount of unnecessary U.S. and Iraqi deaths, destruction and human suffering over this “mistake”. Obama’s violent 2011 overthrow of Libya’s government, his attempted 2012 violent overthrow of Syria’s government, and his routine extrajudicial drone killings, were hardly in keeping with the spirit of his Nobel Peace Prize. Biden’s more recent 2021 missile strike on an innocent family of 10 (3 adults and 7 children) in Afghanistan wasn’t our finest moment either. These are merely a few better-known examples of our government’s misdeeds abroad over the past two decades, but the list goes on and on and on… Yet, despite the U.S. government’s almost continuous series of undeclared wars, overt or covert regime changes, targeted killings, and other military and/or CIA interventions overseas, I don’t recall the U.S. Grand Prix ever being cancelled by the FIA, or any U.S. drivers or athletes being banned from international competitions.
In other words, U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs? Please think about this question critically, and offer some logical reasons why this clear international double standard is justified in your minds (and please come up with an argument better than: “The U.S. means well when we invade other countries, overthrow their governments and kill innocent people under false pretenses, because we’re the good guys and they hate us for our freedoms!”).
I look forward to reading some well-reasoned responses.
P.S.: My reference for the definitions of just and unjust wars are found in “Summa Theologica” by Thomas Aquinas. Of course, countries that wage wars always find ways to justify them.
P.P.S.: Many adult children of U.S. politicians seem to meet the definition of “oligarchs” too (or “princelings” as the Chinese call them). Somehow, the sons and daughters of our politicians routinely get selected for highly-sought-after, well-compensated positions on corporate boards all around the world, and/or awarded lucrative international business deals, consulting deals, art deals, book deals, real estate deals, stock deals, financial deals, etc., etc., etc. These political families amass great wealth through influence peddling and sweetheart deals, but just because they’re not called “oligarchs” here, doesn’t make them less than so. There’s no denying this blatant hypocrisy either.
Without advocating either side of the argument, your primary premise is an opinion and thus not subject to absolute logical conclusion. Someone who holds the contrary primary premise wins as well. Checkmate
Secondly, If you assume your opinion for purposes of the debate , your conclusion that Russia shouldn't be sanctioned because others were not sanctioned for the same conduct in the past, while persuasive, is not conclusive ( i.e. is not logically definitive) as there is no absolute universal rule creating a defense for current bad conduct because potentially similar bad conduct in the past was not remedied. If that were the case we could never discipline kids or bad guys because they would always argue " Johnie did it and you didn't punish him..."
BTW, Thank you for your service.
03-06-2022, 12:26 PM
#64
Without advocating either side of the argument, your primary premise is an opinion and thus not subject to absolute logical conclusion. Someone who holds the contrary primary premise wins as well. Checkmate
Secondly, If you assume your opinion for purposes of the debate , your conclusion that Russia shouldn't be sanctioned because others were not sanctioned for the same conduct in the past, while persuasive, is not conclusive ( i.e. is not logically definitive) as there is no absolute universal rule creating a defense for current bad conduct because potentially similar bad conduct in the past was not remedied. If that were the case we could never discipline kids or bad guys because they would always argue " Johnie did it and you didn't punish him..."
BTW, Thank you for your service.
Secondly, If you assume your opinion for purposes of the debate , your conclusion that Russia shouldn't be sanctioned because others were not sanctioned for the same conduct in the past, while persuasive, is not conclusive ( i.e. is not logically definitive) as there is no absolute universal rule creating a defense for current bad conduct because potentially similar bad conduct in the past was not remedied. If that were the case we could never discipline kids or bad guys because they would always argue " Johnie did it and you didn't punish him..."
BTW, Thank you for your service.
Regarding your second paragraph. I could present a very good argument supporting either side (if I had chosen a side in this thread). Unfortunately, like too many other issues, a lot of people seem to make knee-jerk decisions without putting much thought into them.
There’s no conclusive right or wrong (winning) answer to this issue, so it's a draw not a checkmate...
03-06-2022, 12:55 PM
#65
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This very astute poster recognizes that I didn’t choose sides in any of my posts regarding the subjects of this thread, which are: F1’s decision to cancel the 2022 Russian Grand Prix, and banning Russian drivers/athletes from international competitions. I merely posed some relevant background information and a question, with the intent of exposing the hypocrisy of those who have chosen a side. It’s up to them to justify (via a valid argument) why they chose their particular side. So far, the justifications have been child-like at best.
Regarding your second paragraph. I could present a very good argument supporting either side (if I had chosen a side in this thread). Unfortunately, like too many other issues, a lot of people seem to make knee-jerk decisions without putting much thought into them.
There’s no conclusive right or wrong (winning) answer to this issue, so it's a draw not a checkmate...
Regarding your second paragraph. I could present a very good argument supporting either side (if I had chosen a side in this thread). Unfortunately, like too many other issues, a lot of people seem to make knee-jerk decisions without putting much thought into them.
There’s no conclusive right or wrong (winning) answer to this issue, so it's a draw not a checkmate...
03-06-2022, 10:22 PM
#66
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First. The main point in my post was underlined to make it simple for readers to find. Apparently, that wasn’t simple enough for everyone. For those who missed my point, here it is again: “U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs?” My point is in accordance with the overall subject of this thread.
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
Second: Your post is riddled with false premises and false conclusions that aren’t worthy of individual rebuttal, so here’s my general response/perspective:
Russian athletes are a propaganda "project" that exists to promote Putin, mostly to the internal audience to help maintain power over Russians. I know this from the inside, not from pontifications, speculations and other made-up **** you are reading. It's not even to promote Russia, which would have been somewhat explainable, but specifically to promote Putin, one person, just like Ovechkin awkwardly explains it in his post here: . Even back in 2013 before the first invasion of Ukraine, when I accidentally crashed one of Ovechkin's parties in Moscow, even my Russian partners running global corporations were like "he's too far gone shilling for putin, let's get out of here". He was a pariah even for Russians who aspired to play a part in the global economy because of his role in Putin's circus. I think this alone is a good enough reason. But also, if US athletes showed up in uniforms promoting genocide, they would have been banned too.
The Z letter is a designation of the northern group of Russian armed forces that are right now murdering civilians trying to evacuate from Kharkiv and Kyiv. Again, I know this not from "propaganda" but because for the last 10 days I've been helping evacuations, and I no longer have tears to cry whenever another car or a bus with civilians is blown up or burned alive. These are not social media posts or news articles that may or may not be accurate - for me, these are real calls with real people, and not f-ing pontification on how we cannot trust propaganda. When I'm trying to arrange help and I hear "help is no longer needed", I no longer ask "why" to maintain my sanity because too often it means they were killed on the way by shelling. Have you ever taken a sneak screenshot during a video call just in case this is the last time anyone has seen this person alive so that their family has at least something? I have... And I fear I will have to do it many times over the next few weeks, thanks to Putin and his Z-people. This is not propaganda - I am a real person, many on Rennlist met me in person, and I am not lying. Do you still want to see the "Z" signage in competitions you watch after knowing this?
On the second point - it's hard to say anything about this blanket response that has no substance besides calling it BS that it is. Do you actually know anything about what you are talking about (besides what was conceived in a "content farm" from across the ocean)? How many years have you spent in Russia and Ukraine? How many Russian and Ukrainian politicians, oligarchs, and athletes have you worked with? I know the answers to these questions because if you were not just a "mark" who does not know what he/she is talking about, your PR team would have already told you to stop publicly smearing yourself in **** that's hard to wash off. So this response is not for you - no need to read further.
For the rest, I want to apologize for bringing this heavy stuff into this forum. It just hit too close to home. My close friends and relatives are suffering and dying. Less than two weeks ago, I was busy getting my racecar ready for the season opener. Today I am trying to help an elderly couple who are stuck without food and water in a semi-collapsed highrise building, too scared to go into the basement during shelling because the building next to them collapsed on people who were hiding in the basement. I'm tracking my friend's parents driving through actively bombed roads trying to find cancer meds that cannot be interrupted. I consoled my friend whose cousin was burned alive with the entire family in a car trying to evacuate. Another person did not show up because they were trying to coordinate getting their family from under another collapsed building (they made it alive!) Several people dear to me in Russia and on occupied territories sent me notes that they were notified that their phones and electronic devices are monitored, and they will get 15 years in prison if they say anything about the war. I have not heard from them since, and I'm really hoping that's just them being careful. Someone's family begged me to convince their Ukrainian husband & father to not volunteer - I could not do it, and I will never be able to look them in the eyes if he does not make it back. This is just now and just from a small circle of people close to me (I'm obscuring the relationships for their privacy and safety) and this is civilians being attacked and killed while running for safety. So to anyone who defends Putin or still "does not want to take sides in this conflict" I can only say giant F U, and I will remember to repeat it when we meet in person. It does not take a genius to see pure evil and it takes a completely rotten person to deny or ignore it. Please help Ukraine. This is not propaganda, this is very real.
Apologies again for going so far off-topic. I will not post about this again.
Last edited by MaxLTV; 03-06-2022 at 11:29 PM.
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03-06-2022, 11:38 PM
#67
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Thank you MaxLTV for providing the firsthand insight to the situation in Ukraine.
I am the OP for this thread and it was intended as a public service message for anyone one this list who may have been making advance travel arrangements to the F1 race in Sochi, so they could cancel and possibly avoid financial loss.
As most threads do, this one has gone in scattered directions and has gotten into deep political and moral discussion.
But now that we are so far from the original message, and MaxLTV has provided such a moving description of events there, I feel compelled to make an observation. For background, I'm pretty old - a career military man who is also a Vietnam veteran. I am proud to have served my country and have no regrets.
My thoughts: in 1939 Germany invaded Poland, Austria, and Romania and following their easy conquests quickly followed with campaigns to the west into the Netherlands, Belgium, and France. And this was just the start. History shows that victory often triggers more adventurism, especially if unopposed or not seriously challenged. This is where we seem to be at this moment in time. If Ukraine falls will it be enough for Putin? He already has severe issues with the fact that his city of Kaliningrad sits by itself as an island detached from the mainland and he must transit through Lithuania or Poland for access. Will he try the same move there and if so will his threats of nuclear action be enough to cause NATO to fold? On the question of a no-fly zone over Ukraine. The airspace over Ukraine ins not Russia's, it is Ukraine's. I'm fully aware of the risks in challenging him but where do you draw the red line? The world is in some deep crap right now and I hope that it will return to peace sooner rather than later. This goes to show that when you project weakness you will get challenged. Projecting strength is the best way to preserve the peace. We looked very weak in August in Afghanistan.
I am the OP for this thread and it was intended as a public service message for anyone one this list who may have been making advance travel arrangements to the F1 race in Sochi, so they could cancel and possibly avoid financial loss.
As most threads do, this one has gone in scattered directions and has gotten into deep political and moral discussion.
But now that we are so far from the original message, and MaxLTV has provided such a moving description of events there, I feel compelled to make an observation. For background, I'm pretty old - a career military man who is also a Vietnam veteran. I am proud to have served my country and have no regrets.
My thoughts: in 1939 Germany invaded Poland, Austria, and Romania and following their easy conquests quickly followed with campaigns to the west into the Netherlands, Belgium, and France. And this was just the start. History shows that victory often triggers more adventurism, especially if unopposed or not seriously challenged. This is where we seem to be at this moment in time. If Ukraine falls will it be enough for Putin? He already has severe issues with the fact that his city of Kaliningrad sits by itself as an island detached from the mainland and he must transit through Lithuania or Poland for access. Will he try the same move there and if so will his threats of nuclear action be enough to cause NATO to fold? On the question of a no-fly zone over Ukraine. The airspace over Ukraine ins not Russia's, it is Ukraine's. I'm fully aware of the risks in challenging him but where do you draw the red line? The world is in some deep crap right now and I hope that it will return to peace sooner rather than later. This goes to show that when you project weakness you will get challenged. Projecting strength is the best way to preserve the peace. We looked very weak in August in Afghanistan.
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03-07-2022, 11:31 AM
#69
One can make elaborate arguments to justify a view which proves to be poorly judged. And refusing to take a side on an issue doesn't necessarily mean that someone is a careful thinker, it could just be analysis paralysis. Moreover, there are some moral issues here which aren't necessarily clarified or even justified well by making arguments. Sure, there may be some hypocrisy, but a hypocrite can hold accurate views even if they don't always act on them. For me, what Russia is doing is obviously wrong and unjustified, and tolerating it is both wrong and sets a dangerous precedent. The fact that the US has done some wrong things in the past doesn't mean that the US and Russia are generally equivalent, and it certainly doesn't mean that what Russia is doing now is acceptable.
My position regarding the subject of this thread is that athletes, drivers, cats (yes, even Russian cats are being banned from international competitions these days: http://www1.fifeweb.org/wp/news/#412), etc., shouldn’t be held accountable for the misdeeds of their government’s leaders. This is a consistent position with no self-righteous indignation, exceptions, caveats or “buts”.
03-07-2022, 12:52 PM
#70
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Daniel Kvyat wil not be racing in the WEC this year because he refused to sign an FIA document stating that he is neutral in what is going on with the war. The FIA makes rather stupid decisions on a consistent basis but asking a Russian citizen to sign a document, even stating that he is neutral could have dire consequences for not only him, but his family as well in his home country. It would have been better if the FIA just banned the drivers as FIFA did.
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03-07-2022, 01:51 PM
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Can readers infer that you also supported banning US, UK, Australian, Polish, and Spanish athletes from international competitions due to their governments waging an unjust war and occupation in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary deaths of several hundred thousand innocent human beings? This would be a consistent moral position. Otherwise, it’s just another inconsistent, self-righteous, hypocritical, and rather weak “but we’re the good guys” line of thinking. It also implies that our athletes automatically get a pass for our government’s foreign interventions and misdeeds around the world, while Russian athletes aren’t entitled to the same privilege because our version of democracy is better than theirs (or something to that effect).
My position regarding the subject of this thread is that athletes, drivers, cats (yes, even Russian cats are being banned from international competitions these days: http://www1.fifeweb.org/wp/news/#412), etc., shouldn’t be held accountable for the misdeeds of their government’s leaders. This is a consistent position with no self-righteous indignation, exceptions, caveats or “buts”.
My position regarding the subject of this thread is that athletes, drivers, cats (yes, even Russian cats are being banned from international competitions these days: http://www1.fifeweb.org/wp/news/#412), etc., shouldn’t be held accountable for the misdeeds of their government’s leaders. This is a consistent position with no self-righteous indignation, exceptions, caveats or “buts”.
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85Gold (03-07-2022)
03-07-2022, 06:48 PM
#73
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@MaxLTV Thanks for your post. I know it's the ultimate meekness, but from your knowledge do you have a suggestion for a good organization to donate money to?
Note that most of them are international orgs and will not provide US-standard tax receipts. If those are important, here is a broader list with orgs that provide tax receipts: https://www.inquirer.com/philly-tips...es-donate.html
But the biggest help is pressure on the governments to show strength and resolve, as others suggested above.
I appreciate any help at all. Thank you
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03-09-2022, 01:26 PM
#74
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A little bit back on topic. Mazepin must have gone to the Lewis Hamilton and Toto Wolff school of public relations.
Mazespin says that he would not go back to HAAS if asked because of "safety" issues with the car... Nevermind that all teams have to pass rigorous crash tests by the FIA and the rules are the same for every car.... Perhaps he was talking about his inability to not spin and crash that is the problem?
https://racer.com/2022/03/09/mazepin...%20termination.
Mazespin says that he would not go back to HAAS if asked because of "safety" issues with the car... Nevermind that all teams have to pass rigorous crash tests by the FIA and the rules are the same for every car.... Perhaps he was talking about his inability to not spin and crash that is the problem?
https://racer.com/2022/03/09/mazepin...%20termination.
03-09-2022, 01:40 PM
#75
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A little bit back on topic. Mazepin must have gone to the Lewis Hamilton and Toto Wolff school of public relations.
Mazespin says that he would not go back to HAAS if asked because of "safety" issues with the car... Nevermind that all teams have to pass rigorous crash tests by the FIA and the rules are the same for every car.... Perhaps he was talking about his inability to not spin and crash that is the problem?
https://racer.com/2022/03/09/mazepin...%20termination.
Mazespin says that he would not go back to HAAS if asked because of "safety" issues with the car... Nevermind that all teams have to pass rigorous crash tests by the FIA and the rules are the same for every car.... Perhaps he was talking about his inability to not spin and crash that is the problem?
https://racer.com/2022/03/09/mazepin...%20termination.