Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

This thread contains a lot more emotional thinking than critical thinking.

I’m a U.S. Army combat veteran who proudly (and voluntarily) served my country for many years. All Soldiers fight where we’re told, that’s our lot in life. However, that doesn’t mean we’re all a bunch of mindless drones who can’t recognize hypocrisy when we see it.

As the old saying goes, “people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.” Before condemning Russia’s actions in Ukraine, let’s review some examples of questionable U.S. aggression abroad over the past two decades. Bush’s 2003 invasion of Iraq was unjust, because the premises for war (Iraq possessing WMDs and having ties to Al Qaeda and 9/11) were false. We caused a substantial amount of unnecessary U.S. and Iraqi deaths, destruction and human suffering over this “mistake”. Obama’s violent 2011 overthrow of Libya’s government, his attempted 2012 violent overthrow of Syria’s government, and his routine extrajudicial drone killings, were hardly in keeping with the spirit of his Nobel Peace Prize. Biden’s more recent 2021 missile strike on an innocent family of 10 (3 adults and 7 children) in Afghanistan wasn’t our finest moment either. These are merely a few better-known examples of our government’s misdeeds abroad over the past two decades, but the list goes on and on and on… Yet, despite the U.S. government’s almost continuous series of undeclared wars, overt or covert regime changes, targeted killings, and other military and/or CIA interventions overseas, I don’t recall the U.S. Grand Prix ever being cancelled by the FIA, or any U.S. drivers or athletes being banned from international competitions.

In other words, U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs? Please think about this question critically, and offer some logical reasons why this clear international double standard is justified in your minds (and please come up with an argument better than: “The U.S. means well when we invade other countries, overthrow their governments and kill innocent people under false pretenses, because we’re the good guys and they hate us for our freedoms!”).

I look forward to reading some well-reasoned responses.



P.S.: My reference for the definitions of just and unjust wars are found in “Summa Theologica” by Thomas Aquinas. Of course, countries that wage wars always find ways to justify them.



P.P.S.: Many adult children of U.S. politicians seem to meet the definition of “oligarchs” too (or “princelings” as the Chinese call them). Somehow, the sons and daughters of our politicians routinely get selected for highly-sought-after, well-compensated positions on corporate boards all around the world, and/or awarded lucrative international business deals, consulting deals, art deals, book deals, real estate deals, stock deals, financial deals, etc., etc., etc. These political families amass great wealth through influence peddling and sweetheart deals, but just because they’re not called “oligarchs” here, doesn’t make them less than so. There’s no denying this blatant hypocrisy either.

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor

Valid point. However, as long as the giant elephant in the room is ignored in favor of these little indirect symbolic gestures, nothing will change. What is that elephant? The tens of billions of dollars of Russian oil we purchase and import into the US every year. Up until about a year ago, we were totally energy independent. That has changed. As a result, we now are financing this war every time we fill up. The same with Europe. Until we use that obvious weapon against Vlad the KGB Thug, none of the rest of this crap will have ANY effect. Hence my comment that it is mostly virtue signaling to make people feel better about themselves IMO

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

This thread contains a lot more emotional thinking than critical thinking.

I’m a U.S. Army combat veteran who proudly (and voluntarily) served my country for many years. All Soldiers fight where we’re told, that’s our lot in life. However, that doesn’t mean we’re all a bunch of mindless drones who can’t recognize hypocrisy when we see it.

As the old saying goes, “people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.” Before condemning Russia’s actions in Ukraine, let’s review some examples of questionable U.S. aggression abroad over the past two decades. Bush’s 2003 invasion of Iraq was unjust, because the premises for war (Iraq possessing WMDs and having ties to Al Qaeda and 9/11) were false. We caused a substantial amount of unnecessary U.S. and Iraqi deaths, destruction and human suffering over this “mistake”. Obama’s violent 2011 overthrow of Libya’s government, his attempted 2012 violent overthrow of Syria’s government, and his routine extrajudicial drone killings, were hardly in keeping with the spirit of his Nobel Peace Prize. Biden’s more recent 2021 missile strike on an innocent family of 10 (3 adults and 7 children) in Afghanistan wasn’t our finest moment either. These are merely a few better-known examples of our government’s misdeeds abroad over the past two decades, but the list goes on and on and on… Yet, despite the U.S. government’s almost continuous series of undeclared wars, overt or covert regime changes, targeted killings, and other military and/or CIA interventions overseas, I don’t recall the U.S. Grand Prix ever being cancelled by the FIA, or any U.S. drivers or athletes being banned from international competitions.

In other words, U.S. athletes haven’t been held accountable for the misdeeds of their government, so why should Russian athletes be held accountable for the misdeeds of theirs? Please think about this question critically, and offer some logical reasons why this clear international double standard is justified in your minds (and please come up with an argument better than: “The U.S. means well when we invade other countries, overthrow their governments and kill innocent people under false pretenses, because we’re the good guys and they hate us for our freedoms!”).

I look forward to reading some well-reasoned responses.



P.S.: My reference for the definitions of just and unjust wars are found in “Summa Theologica” by Thomas Aquinas. Of course, countries that wage wars always find ways to justify them.



P.P.S.: Many adult children of U.S. politicians seem to meet the definition of “oligarchs” too (or “princelings” as the Chinese call them). Somehow, the sons and daughters of our politicians routinely get selected for highly-sought-after, well-compensated positions on corporate boards all around the world, and/or awarded lucrative international business deals, consulting deals, art deals, book deals, real estate deals, stock deals, financial deals, etc., etc., etc. These political families amass great wealth through influence peddling and sweetheart deals, but just because they’re not called “oligarchs” here, doesn’t make them less than so. There’s no denying this blatant hypocrisy either.

Originally Posted by Speeds5

we were net exporters of oil in 2020 and we were next exporters of oil in 2021 as well
2020 was the first year were next exporters of oil and that continued in 2021
“Energy independent” means nothing, we export oil and we import oil. We are very much connected to the world energy market. The net balance while important doesn’t make us energy independent.
US oil import from Russia is not the major contributor to Russian oil revenues. Our oil imports are only about 3-4% of Russian oil production.

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor

Nonsense. 500,000 barrels a day x $115 per barrel x 365 days a year = $21 BILLION per year that the US alone is unnecessarily giving to Vlad to finance this war. That's a lot of rubles.

Originally Posted by dgrobs

So…….how bout that early March Alton Virginia weather?……

Originally Posted by Nizer

Hell of a lot better than late June.

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor

Correction:

650,000 barrels per day from Russia.

So OVER $27 BILLION ANNUALLY from us to Vlad.

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor

So????? You are excusing the inexcusable. We didn't need his oil up until about a year ago. Let's get back to the way we were, and we can tell him to pound sand