xkdc2001

Hi all,

I've been tracking my 996 C4S with PCA potomac and New York for a couple years. I'd like to upgrade from my stock seats to something that will provide better support as my skills develop further.

I've tried reading the regulations and searching but have been unable to determine:
- Will PCA allow for third party seats to be installed if I'm only driving in DE events?
- If I select a seat with 3, 4 or 5 point harness compatibility, is it required to have a roll bar installed or will PCA allow seats + harness + harness bar?

The 996 is my daily driver so I'd prefer to find a solution that would allow me to daily drive safely (no bare heads hitting roll bars!). i'd greatly appreciate any advice from those who have tackled this issue previously.

I wish the cost of a second hand 996 GT3 seat was more reasonable because that would be a no brainer but unfortunately I can't really justify a $4k+ outlay!

Cheers.

badabing

Aftermarket racing seats and harnesses are subject to FIA/SFI approvals and expirations.

You will have to buy new seats and harnesses every 5 years and the old ones are practically worthless.

You will also have some additional expenditure in terms of brackets mounts and hardware as well as an issue with airbag warning lights.

The advantage to the oem GT3 seats is that expiration is not an issue and they hold their value. They were $4K-$5K for a set 5 years ago when I started this hobby and they are that price today. Also they usually come with the sliders and should be plug & play.

You can also get a harness bar and some padding as opposed to a half cage so you can properly install 5/6 pt harnesses and have less worry about banging your head in the street.

At that point PCA now requires HANS in conjunction with 5/6 pt harnesses.

xkdc2001

Thanks so much for the reply. Totally agree that the GT3 seats would be the best bet, but I'm unable to do the outlay at this point - but hopefully will be in a better position in 5 years when a set of FIA approved seats expire! Given a set of half decent Sparcos can be purchased for less than $1.5k i'm happy to bare the time and monetary cost of dealing with fitment and ABS sensor issues (excellent flag btw I didn't even think about that).

amurph182

It's on the Potomac tech form:

GPA951s

For DE. An aftermarket seat is fine.. there are no requirements for seats.. i see them come through the tech line all the time.. for PCA club racing..different story.. yes 5 years FIA with sliders… however if that seat is “expired” you can add a back brace and run it as long as you want.. in club racing…

i wouldnt even worry about it for DE…just remember for de.. “ equal restraints”

xkdc2001

Thanks Amurph - I did see that and feel like a bit of a fool for asking the first part of my question! What I guess I'm trying to understand is if I pursue a 4 or 5 point harness with a non-oem seat, will i need a full roll bar or will a harness bar suffice (which i can then remove outside of DE events).

Also, grateful for any advice on seat selection given i'm looking for something that will be an improvement for track days and still comfortable for daily driving. I'm currently looking at the Sparco R600 and R333.

xkdc2001

Amazing. Officially on the hunt for seats now and a restraint + harness bar system.

amurph182

interestingly, the section on safety restraints on the form speaks at length about the harnesses themselves but next to nothing about how they're attached to the car.

I have recaro profi XLs in my cayman. They're comfortable, but I'm fat so YMMV.

JTT

This is a cut and paste directly from the DE Minimum Standards (available on the PCA website). It is generally accepted, that “if” using harnesses, a roll bar and HANS is necessary for the safety of the occupant.

Equal Restraints

Both the driver and passenger must have the same restraint system, and both the driver and the passenger must use the same restraint system.

Harness Systems

If the participant chooses to install a five, six, or seven point driving harness, several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must:

• Include an antisubmarine strap.
• Five, six or seven point SFI or FIA approved competition harnesses are required and must be properly mounted in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications. Belts must be replaced no later than five years after the date of manufacture. It is left to the owners discretion as to whether the belts should be replaced more frequently than required.
• Have all harness attachment points secured/mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions.
• Be used in conjunction with a seat that has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and antisubmarine belts.
• Have the shoulder straps mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions.
• The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is recommended, and an approved head and neck restraint device is required. A head and neck restraint device certified as meeting the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858 or its successor is required. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and a head and neck restraint device may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards.

When using a head and neck restraint device, it is recommended that one follow the SFI Recertification process for the head and neck restraint device. The instructions for this can be found on the device. Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.
The SFI standard requires seat belt to be replaced every two years based on date of manufacture. The FIA standard requires the seat belt to be replaced every five years based on date of manufacture. It is left to the driver’s discretion as to whether the belts should be replaced more frequently than required.
Four-point systems are not allowed, EXCEPT as noted below, in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory. In addition to the standard SFI and/or FIA-approved five- and/or six-point system, a four-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:

• Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
• Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
• Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.

Four Point Belt Exception: Schroth has developed a four point harness for specific vehicles. These vehicles must be fitted with the original factory seats with which the cars and belts were tested. The belts must also be installed per the Schroth instructions. The belts are Federal Motor Vehicle Standard 209, and as such they are deemed street legal and approved by federal seat belt safety regulations. These belts also have labeling confirming the intended use for these specified vehicle models. They are ONLY allowed in the vehicle with which they were tested. These belts are allowed for five years from date of manufacture.

ApexPerformance

we've had a lot of DE guys get Corbeau A4 seats. they recline for daily driving but provide support and you can get the subslots installed in the bases. plus, they make mounts with sliders that bolt right into your oem holes. not FIA but not required for DE and we've never had issues with the seats failing

stownsen914

A seat back brace is a good idea if you decide not to do FIA seats. Worth noting too that even orgs that require FIA seats, most allow non-FIA seats (or expired FIA ones) if used in conjunction with a seat back brace.

Jabs1542

Read JTT’s post carefully. When you are using the OEM 3-point seatbelt system the passengers will lay over during a rollover event (i.e. the driver would lay over towards the passenger seat), this allows the roof to collapse without causing a lot of injuries. Now imagine what would happen if you were in a 6-point harness and the roof collapsed during a roll over, someone is getting shorter or decapitated. This is why harness bars are frowned upon and why you need a roll bar with 5/6-point belts.

The good news is that a roll bar sits well behind the seats in a 996 and do not come close to being a hand banging problem, unfortunately you will effectively lose your dear seats. If you were to show up at a DE with decent matching seats, roll bar, 6-point harness, and HANS you would pass with flying colors.

Bottom line: The entire setup is considered a system and isn’t acceptable until the system is complete.

Frank 993 C4S

^^^^ This

JTT

I don’t see issue with just using seats (and three point stock belts), but once you add a harness, everything changes as noted.

911 Rod

We've beaten to death the talk about roll bars and harnesses. The odds of crushing a roof in a 911 are .....
Personally I run a harness bar.

I have seen reclining seats break when a car goes into a barrier backwards so I wouldn't use one. Pretty easy to swap seats after the weekend.

At what level is your driving?