OK, so I just got off the phone with "koolaide" from BSR and now I am completely freaked out. I was ordering the right side safety net. He asked what kind of seat I had and I told him a Sparco Touring (wihich has head bolsters) and he says that it is inadequate. He says I need rib and shoulder support as well and not in a composite seat either. I just bought this seat and hate to keep spending money. How far do I need to go? Anyone else going crazy with all this safety stuff?

 

Huh???
You mean the rib chrusher Al seats are good?


I don't get it. I have sparco pro2000 and was thinking of a Touring, but after seeing the circuit and that it was cheaper considering that instead.

Hmm.... the Factory GT3RSR's come with Recaro Pro Race SPG's I think. My guess is that a seat like that would be pretty good. It look like sparco copied the basic Recaro Pro Race seat. I would think both would be pretty good.

Heck this brings up to me a basic question. Who used Aluminum seats? To me it really only the US market circle track folks. Road racer and most non-american racers tend to use composites. Why? Is one inherently safer? Is it historic?

This BSR guy is he a circle tracker or road racer? If he is circle tracker that might explain his response. (not familar with road race seat design or composite materials).


Of course this is not to mention all the extra money I will be needing to throw at this. Heck in my days when I knew less I was the proverbial fat,dumb and happy with my fiberglass sparco seat and 6 pt harness. Now it looks like I'll need to drop in another $1800 is safety gear (seat & H&N device) just to "feel" as safe as before. Not to mention the $300 I spent a new FIA harness to replace my 2.5 year old perfectly good Sparco SFI.

Aww hell, I'll probably just not race for while until I can get the money for this.

 

That's Bob right (crews for Phil Simms GT1 car)? He's a super nice guy and I have bought a ton of things from him/them over the past few years. Remember, they are primarily a NASCAR shop (from what it looks like) and their experience with composite seats are going to be different than a group that has been working with them for years. But in principal what he's saying makes sense, its a combination of systems (head, shoulders, etc) and all incidents are not created equal. I am pretty certain that most would recommend a composite seat over a straight aluminum torso support seat - what they have there (Bulter Built full blown custom - IIRC) is not in the same ballpark and no way in hell I'd take out my Momo for a torso support Al. seat - actually, I tossed the Al. seat for my first Momo Cup.

 

Hey Guys;

I think it is important to distinguish intent here. A "full boat safety system" is indeed the best way to go. These systems made of seat, harness, H&N, and now side nets are designed to keep the driver in a very localized area regardless of the circumstance. If you are going 150-200mph, this might not be something you should ignore.

It is my opinion that NASCAR - as a result of recent tragedies - is leading the way. They are of the opinion that good old metal is superior. Metal tends to deform in a linear fashion, but given the proper alloy, not fail catastrophically. Plastic is indeed amazing stuff, but I think they do not trust it completely, and I can't say I blame them. Note that even the FIA has a life span rule for it.

Arguments can be made either way that plastic is higher-tech, metal is low tech. Plastic is flimsy and fickle, metal is tough and durable. It is also the case that metal requires less equipment to manufacture these items from, and therefor less cost, and further that metal correctly chosen tends to have a much longer fatigue life. I also happen to feel more intrinsically comfortable with metal than plastic, and I think that is what you see in NASCAR and the current US trend toward metal seating.

The "Snooty Euros" pick stuff for light weight and trick factor. The "American Farmers" tend toward utility and ruggedness.

As for configuration, it is important to have roughly equal retention for all parts of the body to maintain the safety and survivability of each segment. The "old style" for road racing was to have the body pretty well tied down, but the head was free to flail. Road race seats provided pretty good support for the body, but would still deform in the extreme and spill the body out. People started to use the alloy "rib crusher" seats popular for years with roundy rounders, but quickly found that they were no free ticket! Most thinking roundy rounders don't use them anymore either! And none of these seats held the head.

If you follow a collision time line, you first want to make sure the body is secure, then since it is the most elastic and remote, the head. However, you do NOT want the head well restrained but the body not. That would cause the same neck trauma, but from the opposite direction.

The latest and most effective "Full Containment" equipment can be seen on the homepage at Safety Solutions. It encompasses ALL of the items in the system, rendered to their current ultimate state. That is seemingly the best you can do. The idea down the line from there is to try and keep retention levels as even as you can regarding head and body. Adding head retention to a seat with moderate to marginal body support has the "potential" to skew the sequence of travel backwards.

Bottom line, do what you can. If you feel uncomfortable, make yourself comfortable. Each of us must assess our own risk levels. I'm looking at it much differently these days myself!

 

Folks, whole issue of H&N is pretty new so finding any reliable concensus opinions is probably going to be difficult for some time... admit to being surprised to find that protection from my HANS in a pure 90 degree side collision may not be that great... which brings lateral head support front and center...

BTW do you have URL for Satety Solutions?

 

Yeh...

Thought about it. Figured everyone knew already. Shoulda put that in.

http://www.hutchensdevice.com/

JC - True, a HANS, and to some degree EVERY H&N, is not overly effective in a straight side hit. The HANS perhaps less so because it is not mechanically attached to anything and seemingly has the potential to come out from under the belts.

However, that sort of force would be taken up by the head retention portion of a full containment race seat, hence its existence as part of the "System." The seat takes the brunt, the H&N keeps the head from over extending, and side netting takes care of the truly scarey ones where the body stretches out past the seat.


...oh, and the data is pretty clear from EVERYONE that ANY of the popular H&N systems are better than nothing in most cases.

 

Thanks. looks like my Sparco Pro 2000 does not have the degree of lateral containment we are talking about here.... the side bolsters allow quite a bit of side to side movement, and the head wings are faily shallow in angle.... certantly not like the head restraints you are seeing that are 90 degrees from lateral....

Or is the issue that because the lateral containment capability of the body and the head bolsters are roughly equal that they will keep the head and body in proper relationship to minimize neck load even though the total sideward movement is relatively large?

Also, I'm always concerned about "too much" containment.... seems like a certain abount of movement is good to help dissipate energy... I guess the tradeoff is "good" movement where the safety equipment absorbs energy, and "bad" movement where you are displaced out of the effective working range of the safety equipment....e.g. come out of your belts on a side impact, or slam against the cage/body of the car.

Side impacts are particularly scary in this respect since you don't have 4 feet of crush zone in front of you

Anybody have insight here?

 

In light of a recent horrific accident at TWS this past PCA club race where the driver almost lost his life and he is still fighting for it on a very heavy side impact, I have decided that it is of prime importance to stick to the best safety equipment you can buy. I know that this might struck a sore spot for some and no offence is to be taken by this post as none is intended. Apparently the cage fitted in the car was homemade and very rigid, too rigid to absorb some of the impact by an experts account, the seat broke so as you can appreciate the driver was a bouncing ball in the cage in the car...horrific to even think about it. So in my view buy the best and TESTED cage (for our cars Heigo is an example) , the best seat like the SPG with head protection that the Porsche factory is using, a head restraint device like the HANS which is FIA approved and tested etc...
I do not know the really small details of the accident, nor I'm willing to comment or disclose anything more as it is not my business to do so, however by the accounts I heard it was horrific...

Stay safe out there!

 

Actually, looking at the Safety Solutions/Hutchens site, that seat is the ISP seat, from the race shop linked in the other thread...

Keep talking guys, I think we're getting somewhere!

 

It's also the same driver net that BSR recommended. Looking at the animated gif on their site, I still can't tell where exactly its mounted - it looks like its right smack up against the helmet before the impact. Interesting stuff.

 

I talked to Bob at Foreign Affairs where my car sleeps and we will have a meeting next week to discuss all possible safety items. For now I have a Sparco Touring seat (has head bolsters), full cage, HANS, fire suppression. I have ordered the Hats Off device (a great simple, cheap device) and the right side net. I don't think I will be switching out the seat again (I just swapped out a Sparco 2000).

The problem as I see it is with the ultimate retention comes greater difficulty extracting the driver from the car. It's a tradeoff.
The other concern is with more obscure devices (like the Hats Off) the EMS folks won't know how to use them and it may impede their decisiveness. But definately more discussion needs to keep happening here. Let's keep up the safety thread.

 

Has anyone purchased the SAE paper on H&N devices?

I've been meaning to, but keep forgetting to order when I have my wallet at the computer.

 

JCP;

Awesome. You nailed it, absolutely dead center bullseye!

Again, great stuff! This is where the FIA got it more right than others and headed everyone else in the right direction. Stiffness is good to a point and in some places more than others, but then becomes the enemy. When some groups were mandating seat back braces, FIA said wait a minute, there's not enough flex to absorb energy.

Basic slow hit, pretty much any decent seat will do and the neck will take it. More violence the seat will hold up OK, but this gets you into H&N territory, actually at a much lower level that most people envisioned. When things start to escalate, full containment seats become necessary. When it gets REALLY nasty, side nets come into play.

Again, its about risk assessment. How far can I foresee my situation going if something goes awry? What's my kinetic energy potential?

Mitch -

Great addition! EMS people are going to have to keep up with us. They better all have some serious scissors to cut webbing. Cutting roofs off cars will be more prominent as this stuff consumes more space.

 

Seat back brace issue is a good one. PCA required a seat brace (I think because of a fatal rear impact collision at LRP where the seat back broke... no 2-piece seat is safe for racing in my non-technical opinion)

Most people have it directly against the seat back, but I put about 4" of high density foam between it and the seat... FIA seats are designed to deform to some extent in a rear impact... putting the seat brace against the seat drives the impact directly into your back... not safe IMHO

PCA has since relaxed that requirement... making braces optional if you have a one piece FIA seat... and recommending space between it and the seat... I think they are right here,but they didn't make a big deal out of it... so I don't know if everybody got the news...

Anyway... I think everybody should consider re-position their seat brace... making it the last line of defence against hitting the belt bar on the cage...

 

Everything I am going to say is my opinion - some of it is a bit repetetive. My opinion comes from discussions with drivers, vendors and others. It is not meant as fact, merely what I have found and I am not fool enough to think I always ask with perfect clarity nor hear without bias as well. I would suggest to anyone, if there is any question or doubt about the intended design of a product, talk to the product designer. They cannot possilbly test their systems with everything on the market but those they do test with are going to be familiar to them and how those items interact will have many more knowns than unknowns.

-- opinion --

I think the most important thing to note is that safety equipment is designed to work as a system, some of it may be combined in various arrangements but some of it frankly should not. The correct combinations of systems will yeild the best level of protection, other additional items really are meeting the individual's personal concerns.

If you look at the recommended seat arrangements for an aluminum seat, it has custom fitted padding in various levels of density, includes rib and shoulder supports, must use a seat back brace. On a composite seat, you have the seat with mount points at the base (from the side or the bottom). In both cases, the seats will yeild the same results, its a seat that will deform in a high g impact and retain its basic structure as to protect the driver - the composite does this by flexing from the base, the aluminum from giving under load - the aluminum doesn't have the rigidity so the fixed mount on the back keeps it aligned. You do not want to use a seat back brace rigidly attached to a composite seat as this can put stress where it was not designed to go. I am not a big fan of using sliders and there are other, safer options to multiple sized-driver cars. I am really an opponent of an OE seat with or without bracing.

Some drivers want to run a head supporting seat. In either the aluminum or composite seat, the head support is only in use for a lateral impact. The head nets* are integral to their use (and I should note that what I was talking about in the other thread on head retention is different than this). They are (as I now know) designed to sit inside the area of the head support and they are integral to assuring that in a straight or light offset hit, the head doesn't come back into the support (that's why they sit inside it) as the back continues back into the seat. This should be the case whether its a composite or aluminum seat.

Head and neck restraints represent a very big change in safety for the driver, they all however are rendered virtually useless if the belts are not worn, installed and placed correctly. Sub belts that are too high can place the camlock in the wrong place in a high speed impact. Nylon belts will stretch 12% in an impact - any slack before impact will be significant during an impact. Belts should not fold over themselves as they pass through the lap belt openings - if they do, they should be remounted so they do not. Several folks choose to wear halos with H&N restraints, check the manufacturers test data on this, some claim this is a detriment not an addition. Those mere ounces quickly become pounds in a high g impact. Many people believe that they can prevent neck compressions - if you can squeze them between your fingers, they cannot help any more than the pipe insulation some folks use on their cages. They are very good for neck support under normal (not hitting stuff) situations and I won't personally instruct without mine.

Most club race rules require roll cage padding. This is a good thing, the pipe insulation however that many folks use for budgetary reasons provides no resistance in an impact - they are good for not bruising yourself on bars getting in and out of the car in the paddock. On this note, a ton of folks will buy the SFI padding and cover every conceivable inch of piping in the cockpit - they will however have a telescoping front connection to their window net and leave themselves a piece of square/round/flat bar that they have no ability to pad and it IMO is a broken wrist waiting to happen.

Petty bars, (and I understand them to originally came from running a diagonal from the b pillar on the driver side to the a pillar on the passenger side on the roof - irrespective of the root, the current type is what I am talking about) the bar running from the main hoop to the psgr. footwell when mounted to the top of the main hoop, it is a.) providing no appreciable rigidity (its how many feet long?) and b.) it becomes a very easy bar to hit on a psgr. side impact with your head. If you must have one (and many folks do), for safety's sake, run it from the cross bar to the psgr. side footwell.

Fire bottles, at a minimum, are required for race cars. I run one in my track car/dd as well. They should never be placed where they can become an airborn projectile in an impact. I believe this was the cause of death for a T1 driver at Poccono last year (perhaps someone can confirm this). Guys that run camcorders should also be very mindful to use the tethers provided with most camera mounts, without these, the camera is a 4-7 lbs. projectile that could easily ruin your day. After watching my wink mirror come off in slow motion during my wreck (due to no direct impact to it), I will be tethering it to the hoop next go round. Its not the sort of thing I want hitting my chest at who knows how many mph (fortunately for me, it went into the passenger footwell instead).

* Just to be clear from the other post, I am installing a head net on the inboard side of the driver not as a means to guide the head back into the seat but as an equivalent to the driver side window net - hopefully it will never be used but this intent is to be a last line of containment from a pasgr. side impact (which your window net does on a drivers side impact as well).

-- /opinion --

Mitch, by and large, I agree with you that the harder to get into the seat, the harder to get out of it. Some will point out that its important to balance the importance of when you are getting out of it - the same things that make it difficult to get out of the seat after a wreck should keep you in the seat during the impact. As for the Hats Off device, F&S crews are becoming familiarized with this, the various H&N restraints and as I mentioned a few months back, newer driver extraction systems. Whether those at your track are is another question. On the "what we can do" aspect, safety workers are folks just like us, perhaps a bit more on the brave side of things. Maybe drop by after thier lunch break or at the end of the day and say "hey, not sure if you guys are familiar with this new zurk but wanted to show you how it works if you are unfamiliar."


Geo, I think its because they (SAE documents 2002-01-3304/2002-01-3306) are copywrited materials that you will not read too much about them on these boards.