Funny you should mention that. Two weekends ago, a 911 went sideways into a concrete wall at TWS. Well, the RR corner struck first, then the rest of the right side of the car smacked into the wall. Not a glancing blow, but nearly straight in. From what I've heard, he may not have been at 100 mph, but he was close enough to that speed to make you wish you were somewhere else.

The driver (driving someone else's car) came out of the seat (which fractured), hit his head on two or three elements of the cage, culminating in a big hit on the RIGHT downtube of the main hoop. The passenger side of the car. Last I heard, he's still in ICU a week & a half later.

I'm afraid I don't know the make/model seat used, or where it broke (back, mounts, etc). It *was* a full-cage, racing seat, harness, etc etc etc car - not a DE car. Check to make sure your harnesses are doubled back through their buckles, kids.

 

That's scary - obviously it was horrid if he ended up in the ICU, but I'd strive to better understand WHY he took the extended trip inside the car... not just seat breaking, but what else failed?

I put my 924 sideways into the armco at the end of last season, but estimated at half the speed (spun at around 70mph, probably was doing 50 at impact), but I stayed put. Bouncing my head off the petty bar probably didn't hurt that (though I did have a bit of a headache... for a week). No video or other crash data, but I hit hard enough to blow the back hatch and bend the right rear rim and trailing arm. I'm equipped with a Kirkey el-cheapo circle track seat (survived what seems to be in spite of this), 6-point harnesses, and ISAAC H+N device (thank God!).

Sorta provides another nice note of emphasis on the use of auxiliary internal nets to control driver motion, among other things. The petty bar more or less stopped my head around where a head net would've... though perhaps in a more abrupt manner!

 

I was told the harnesses weren't doubled back through their buckles.

 

What we need is a reference text for this area of racing, although it would be outdated by the time it was published. As I said earlier, I am meeting with my car builder tomorrow and will report back. I don't think anyone has enough data to know what is the best solution. I am commited to this and while money always is a limiting factor, I will not let it get in the way of being safe.

 

Guys,
Relineman brought up some good ideas. What are the percentages? Robert, the indicent you mentioned sounds like a nasty. It serves to prove that even now serious incidents can happen. However what is liklyhood that will happen again? At the same track or a different one?

It is my feeling that whenever we venture out on to the track the possiblity of serious injury or worse exists. No matter how much safter gear we install this potential cannot be removed. This is not to say that we should not pursue advancements, but we do need to becareful we do not undergo knee-jerk reactions to a particular incident.

Jerry' point on the previous page in my mind was very valid. Cars are much safer than they were years ago. Fourty years ago any incident meant injury or worse. All the drivers both club and pro level knew this. Did it change their driving style? My guess is that it did. Going around lap after a lap with guys right off you bumper knowing the risks of an error makes more carefull. Today with the much less risk of injury is it possilbe that drivers are more likly to be involved in "minor" contact? I'll let you guys decide that.

The good thing about club racing and DE is that for the most part guys are a tight budget. Even the guys with $100k 996 cup cars are on a budget just like the guy with $5k 944. Neither of them wants to bang up thier car and then pay the bills to fix it. In general this good thing. If you spend sometime consider not wanting to damage your car it is likely that there will be less chance of an incident.

In my mind that is why DE is safer than racing. So guys do say that a impact in DE is same as in racing so should not the equipment be the same? Well as we all know in DE the driving objective is different and I believe the chances of contact are much less due to a more carefull driving style. Racers tend to hang it out a bit more. Personally I know that I do hang it out more racing than in DE.

I will be watching this thread as we have been discussing alot of good things.

 

Mitch,
I honestly WISH I could agee with you. Racing in a budget means typically racing a cheap car. That is good for racing. I personally can't afford to race a 996 cup car for example. I love to, but have no way to make it happen. Luckily I don't have to. In stead I race an old 944 that I built along with my father's help in his back yard. If I could sell it maybe I'd get $10k for it.

Problem is that not that $1000 spent on safty gear is 10% of my car value, while only 1% for the guy with the 996 Cup. Because I race at limit of what I can spend that $1000 is means alot more to me than some others. So while I' love to dump the bucks in to get the latest safety gear I need to caution all my purchases with the risk level.

There are things I'd like to have, but do not have the money for.

1) H&N
2) Full retention seat
3) Fire bottle
4) Fuel Cell


I'd love these, but can't realy budget them in. So I must evaluate the risks and go with what I can or not race. That is precisly why threads like this are so important. I must carefully spend my limited racing dollars on what will get me the most benefit, ether by safety or speed on track. It is guys who have the experiences that I look to help me make those determinations.

Keep the good info coming.

 

Some replies.... understand I am not an engineer...I'm a dumm marketing guy, so everything I say is speculation or stuff I hear in the paddock...

My worry is not how the equipment functions in a lap around the track... my concern is how it functions under and extreme high g impact.... and all kinds of wierd things happen in that situtation.

My thinking on stock seats is as follows

First, the sub belt comes over the front of the seat not directly down... this allows 6" or so of room to "submarine" under the lap belt.... thats a scary thought

Secondly, stock seats are soft and compress... harnesses don;t move, so you could end up sinking into the seat with the lap belt across your abdomin not your pelvic bone.... again not good.

Third, the seats are wide... the lap belts come in at a flat angle...leaving more stretch room, and side to side movement....

Fourth, wrapping the shoulder belts around the seatback may not position them directly behind the chest... especially with 'pyramid shaped seats typical if Porsches, if the belts move down the seat... they naturally spread apart

Not sure 924 point about your arms keeping them in position is comforting since that suggest that your shoulder joint... not your chest is absorbing the impact.... you can dislocate a shoulder rolling over in bed.....not a very strong part of your body

Again these are speculations/questions not statements of fact...

My thinking is that the factory 3-points at least have gone through rigorous testing by qualified engineers so there is some baseline of established performance..... alot of these today are pretensioned to deal with body movement relative to the seat.... harnesses are not.

Perhaps a compromised harness is still better than a 3-point, but does anybody have info that this is true or not....

 

Oh.... Also, Redline... The HANS really isn't all that cumbersome... it does not restrict exit since once you pop the belts, you can get right out....

Also, with a little practice, you can take it on and off almost as easily as just the helmet.... just hold the helmet high over your head, lean your head forward....feed the collar of the HANS down from behind you neck, and then pull your helmet down....

I cannot do this in the car.... but once you have it on you can pull the helmet 90% off if you are stuck on the grid for a while....

GIve yourself an extra minute to get your belts on... thats about it.

 

Why go to all that trouble. Just put the HANS on first then clip the tabs onto the helmet after it's on. Only takes another minute once you get good at it. That way you could put it on in the car.

 

Mitch... if that works for you.... I'm not that coodinated...besides, if I keep unclipping it, I'll lose it...... kind of the same concept as having those little clips on you mittens when you were in 1st grade.......

 

I assume you are using the quick release to uncouple the straps. I just use the eyelet clip to unclip the helmet. There's nothing to lose that way.

 

I'm talking about losing my HANS device.....

 

BTW.... just talked to OGRacing.... Sparco Circuit seats with head restraint system are being shipped May-June time frame.... price $650 ish.... not bad compared with some of the alterntives.... and competitive with standard seats...

 

M758, you do mean a fire system not fire bottle right? Fire bottles are less than a few bottles of brake fluid and I'd be surprised if a sanctioning body let you run without one on a roadcourse.

On the relative safety in percentages guys, I don't know about you but how I determine my own ease with percentages is due in large part to the fact that I am driving. As an instructor at a DE, I want the percentages in a landslide in my favor - I do my best to control the situation but in the end, I don't have ultimate control. I am one of those dorks that will refuse to get into a student's car if they have 5pts and no rollbar. I have ridden with students in the past with stock seats, rollbar and harnesses but after watching a students head go around like a pinball when his seatback broke with this setup, I feel I cannot do that anymore. I have no problem with OE seat, OE harnesses for an OE car but as you can see from my post on page one, I am a firm believer in "the system" concept. As someone said earlier, the walls are no softer at a DE than at a race.

 

Adam,
I was refering to the difference between a fire extingusher vs a fire system with pull cable and 1 or more spray nozzles.

Honestly if there is a fire my first concern is to slow the car pull off the road and bail out. Then worry about the car.