How do pros get the most out of a car in a short amount of time?
09-24-2020, 07:24 PM
#16
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This reminded me of a video from several days ago. Watching this was super impressive, especially how fast he gets up to speed on the car and tires. It made me think similar questions as OP.
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Veloce Raptor (09-24-2020)
09-24-2020, 08:21 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Quite a few years ago we had an extraordinary event at TWS where Andy Lally came out and drove about 40 cars. The deal was two days of open track and Andy would take your car out with you riding shotgun for 3-4 laps. Every car was new to Andy and he did not have a problem "adjusting". Andy had never driven TWS before either - again, no problem adjusting.
At the driver's meeting it was decided that whatever car Andy was driving would have flashers and lights on since he was moving from car to car so quickly during the two days. Turned out it was not needed as nobody had an issue spotting Andy in their mirrors even though you didn't know ahead of time which car he was in - the lights and flashers were unnecessary. I mean is was freaking obvious as his exit speed out of corners was much higher than the usual drivers of those cars that day. It was obvious even with cars I hadn't seen before.
At dinner I asked Andy if his skill was "nature or nurture" and part of his answer was (paraphrasing) part of getting to his skill level was not caring about the car and one of his big breaks was getting a team owner that "didn't care if they had to shovel the car into the trailer at the end of the day". I don't equate this at all to the idea that one has to have offs to really know the limit - but I do see that when really pushing it, worry about damaging the car will hold somebody back.
He is the video clip of when he drove my car faster than I've ever driven it. Dual purpose E36 M3 with NT-05 street tires. His car control skills were phenomenal. From the passenger seat the car was always happy despite the wheel movements and that it was sliding around a lot. Always felt completely in control and it almost felt like the car was barely touching the pavement:
Lally 1999 BMW E36 TWS
(Anybody who has dealt with old BMW "snap on" shift ***** understands the frustration at the end when it came off in Andy's hand.)
At the driver's meeting it was decided that whatever car Andy was driving would have flashers and lights on since he was moving from car to car so quickly during the two days. Turned out it was not needed as nobody had an issue spotting Andy in their mirrors even though you didn't know ahead of time which car he was in - the lights and flashers were unnecessary. I mean is was freaking obvious as his exit speed out of corners was much higher than the usual drivers of those cars that day. It was obvious even with cars I hadn't seen before.
At dinner I asked Andy if his skill was "nature or nurture" and part of his answer was (paraphrasing) part of getting to his skill level was not caring about the car and one of his big breaks was getting a team owner that "didn't care if they had to shovel the car into the trailer at the end of the day". I don't equate this at all to the idea that one has to have offs to really know the limit - but I do see that when really pushing it, worry about damaging the car will hold somebody back.
He is the video clip of when he drove my car faster than I've ever driven it. Dual purpose E36 M3 with NT-05 street tires. His car control skills were phenomenal. From the passenger seat the car was always happy despite the wheel movements and that it was sliding around a lot. Always felt completely in control and it almost felt like the car was barely touching the pavement:
Lally 1999 BMW E36 TWS
(Anybody who has dealt with old BMW "snap on" shift ***** understands the frustration at the end when it came off in Andy's hand.)
Amazing how the steering wheel rarely moves more than 30-45 degrees, I guess the street tires help with the rotation, as does the light rear in your M3. Would love to see the same footage for a 911...
The shift **** coming off was just the icing on the cake. That happened in my old 320i vert the one time my wife was driving it....
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TXE36 (09-24-2020)
09-24-2020, 08:32 PM
#18
Originally Posted by roadie13
That was great, I got a beer out of the fridge just for watching this!
Amazing how the steering wheel rarely moves more than 30-45 degrees, I guess the street tires help with the rotation, as does the light rear in your M3. Would love to see the same footage for a 911...
The shift **** coming off was just the icing on the cake. That happened in my old 320i vert the one time my wife was driving it....
Amazing how the steering wheel rarely moves more than 30-45 degrees, I guess the street tires help with the rotation, as does the light rear in your M3. Would love to see the same footage for a 911...
The shift **** coming off was just the icing on the cake. That happened in my old 320i vert the one time my wife was driving it....
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roadie13 (09-24-2020)
09-24-2020, 09:09 PM
#19
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Most club racers and DE drivers know how to drive their car on certain tracks. Pro racers now how to drive any track with any car.
I notice that as the years go by I can pick up a new track quicker as my overall skill improves. If I had another 130 years I might get up to the pro level, but I am trying!
I notice that as the years go by I can pick up a new track quicker as my overall skill improves. If I had another 130 years I might get up to the pro level, but I am trying!
09-24-2020, 09:23 PM
#20
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Seth Thomas (09-30-2020)
09-24-2020, 09:30 PM
#21
That weekend was epic and despite losing 1/2 of it to fixing a broken engine mount, it ties for first place as the best track weekend I've ever had. In addition to the fun with Andy, lots of guys set new personal bests including myself. I'll never forget it. It's worth giving a shout out to Dave Scott (VR) and Mike Globe as they put the event together.
One memorable sequence was coming out of T15 onto the front stretch with a buddy behind me in an '83 911. Didn't know it at the start, but Lally is driving a white E46 M3 behind my buddy.
- At 0:16 I reach apex of T15
- At 0:25 I give my buddy a point by on the left
- At start/finish, 0:30 I notice a white E46 M3 come out of T15 like it was shot out of a cannon. This car belonged to a talented local guy - I'd never seen it go that fast before.
- At 0:31-0:34 I recall thinking my buddy better get his *** past me as he's about to get freight trained. You can see me watching the left mirror pretty intently.
- At 0:35, point by for Lally
- At 0:39 Holy Closure Rate Batman! Andy's got the E46 M3 wound up real good.
- In T1 he is all over my friend in the 911*
- By the apex of T2, at 0:50, Lally is by him
- Didn't need no flashing lights to know it was Lally -- it was painfully obvious even in the rear view mirror.
*During paddock discussion afterward, my friend commented that when Lally caught him in T1 he observed the white E46 M3 catching him while going sideways.
Keeping at least a bit on topic, it was impressive how fast he came up to speed in each car.
09-24-2020, 09:45 PM
#22
Originally Posted by TXE36
Listen to the above video at 5:40 quoting Lally: "That's got to be the fastest I've gone with a ****in' shoulder belt in years!"
That weekend was epic and despite losing 1/2 of it to fixing a broken engine mount, it ties for first place as the best track weekend I've ever had. In addition to the fun with Andy, lots of guys set new personal bests including myself. I'll never forget it. It's worth giving a shout out to Dave Scott (VR) and Mike Globe as they put the event together.
One memorable sequence was coming out of T15 onto the front stretch with a buddy behind me in an '83 911. Didn't know it at the start, but Lally is driving a white E46 M3 behind my buddy.
*During paddock discussion afterward, my friend commented that when Lally caught him in T1 he observed the white E46 M3 catching him while going sideways.
Keeping at least a bit on topic, it was impressive how fast he came up to speed in each car.
That weekend was epic and despite losing 1/2 of it to fixing a broken engine mount, it ties for first place as the best track weekend I've ever had. In addition to the fun with Andy, lots of guys set new personal bests including myself. I'll never forget it. It's worth giving a shout out to Dave Scott (VR) and Mike Globe as they put the event together.
One memorable sequence was coming out of T15 onto the front stretch with a buddy behind me in an '83 911. Didn't know it at the start, but Lally is driving a white E46 M3 behind my buddy.
- At 0:16 I reach apex of T15
- At 0:25 I give my buddy a point by on the left
- At start/finish, 0:30 I notice a white E46 M3 come out of T15 like it was shot out of a cannon. This car belonged to a talented local guy - I'd never seen it go that fast before.
- At 0:31-0:34 I recall thinking my buddy better get his *** past me as he's about to get freight trained. You can see me watching the left mirror pretty intently.
- At 0:35, point by for Lally
- At 0:39 Holy Closure Rate Batman! Andy's got the E46 M3 wound up real good.
- In T1 he is all over my friend in the 911*
- By the apex of T2, at 0:50, Lally is by him
- Didn't need no flashing lights to know it was Lally -- it was painfully obvious even in the rear view mirror.
*During paddock discussion afterward, my friend commented that when Lally caught him in T1 he observed the white E46 M3 catching him while going sideways.
Keeping at least a bit on topic, it was impressive how fast he came up to speed in each car.
09-24-2020, 10:28 PM
#24
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That weekend with Andy was really epic in so many ways
09-24-2020, 10:52 PM
#25
Come on. Pros typically have experience in a bunch of cars and car types. Also, their butts are just in better tune with what the tires and suspension are telling them about what the car is doing or about to do. Pros do a much better job of anticipating what is going to happen because they have the experience and butt meter that allows them to get closer to the edge and stay there. If you have talent, you can't get help but get better with more seat time. Once you move up and get some real engineers working with you, you learn even more and get better yet. People that don't have talent never get that chance unless they are rich. That rarely works out well.....
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Veloce Raptor (09-25-2020)
09-25-2020, 10:40 AM
#26
I would like to get rich so I can figure out if I've got talent. Off to buy a lottery ticket...
09-25-2020, 11:28 AM
#27
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Come on. Pros typically have experience in a bunch of cars and car types. Also, their butts are just in better tune with what the tires and suspension are telling them about what the car is doing or about to do. Pros do a much better job of anticipating what is going to happen because they have the experience and butt meter that allows them to get closer to the edge and stay there. If you have talent, you can't get help but get better with more seat time. Once you move up and get some real engineers working with you, you learn even more and get better yet. People that don't have talent never get that chance unless they are rich. That rarely works out well.....
I would add that the ability to come back only holding a steering wheel, and not having to pay that bill, helps as well.
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Veloce Raptor (09-25-2020)
09-25-2020, 11:41 AM
#28
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09-30-2020, 03:14 PM
#29
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To answer the OP: Like any other professional sport, its a blend of natural talent mixed with endless hours of practice.
09-30-2020, 03:58 PM
#30
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I have $0.01 to provide. I’m as far from a pro racer as it gets. I don’t even race in novice events. I do mostly Xbox racing (so maybe it’s –$0.01)
But one trick I use to test limits of any vehicle is particularly easy to do in the snow, but it can be done in the wet or dry alike. In the snow, with any street car, when I first leave my driveway, on the road with nobody around, I get the car sliding around immediately, finding the traction limits with steering, then braking, then acceleration. On my own car, it tells me immediately what the friction limits are in this particular environment. With a new/unknown car or track, it tells me immediately how the car behaves and handles on that surface.
I’ve taken this same approach when doing track events on a new track or car. Best to do on warmup laps or when nobody is around.
I feel like driving a car at the limit is similar to skiing, in that most of the time, the car is sliding around while doing anything other than straight-line acceleration.
I’d expect the more experience I get, the less time it takes for me to discover these limits and handling characteristics.
To be a really good driver requires 9.5+ tenths on lap 1 - to hit it hard right from the get-go, but like a lot of things in life, it’s hundreds of hours of preparation and practice that make the final product look easy. Wasn’t it Aryton Senna that, after winning an F1 race, went back out on the track in a street car because there was section or turn he knew could have had an improvement on?
But one trick I use to test limits of any vehicle is particularly easy to do in the snow, but it can be done in the wet or dry alike. In the snow, with any street car, when I first leave my driveway, on the road with nobody around, I get the car sliding around immediately, finding the traction limits with steering, then braking, then acceleration. On my own car, it tells me immediately what the friction limits are in this particular environment. With a new/unknown car or track, it tells me immediately how the car behaves and handles on that surface.
I’ve taken this same approach when doing track events on a new track or car. Best to do on warmup laps or when nobody is around.
I feel like driving a car at the limit is similar to skiing, in that most of the time, the car is sliding around while doing anything other than straight-line acceleration.
I’d expect the more experience I get, the less time it takes for me to discover these limits and handling characteristics.
To be a really good driver requires 9.5+ tenths on lap 1 - to hit it hard right from the get-go, but like a lot of things in life, it’s hundreds of hours of preparation and practice that make the final product look easy. Wasn’t it Aryton Senna that, after winning an F1 race, went back out on the track in a street car because there was section or turn he knew could have had an improvement on?
