Wright Device Head and Neck Restraint
03-21-2004, 04:02 PM
#31
Two data points:
While I certainly don't think one would hurt, I wouldn't consider a neck collar a viable safety device for high speed collisions. Consider that a typical human head weighs 20+ pounds. In a very mellow 20 G collision, that head will be exerting 400 pounds of force. I've never seen a neck collar that I'd trust to restrain 400 pounds.
Also, if any of you are SCCA members or know someone who is, get ahold of the March 2004 issue of SportsCar. It has a four page article with descriptions, pictures, and prices for eight of the head and neck restraint devices out there -- quite useful.
Steve
- also thinking of getting a restraint
While I certainly don't think one would hurt, I wouldn't consider a neck collar a viable safety device for high speed collisions. Consider that a typical human head weighs 20+ pounds. In a very mellow 20 G collision, that head will be exerting 400 pounds of force. I've never seen a neck collar that I'd trust to restrain 400 pounds.
Also, if any of you are SCCA members or know someone who is, get ahold of the March 2004 issue of SportsCar. It has a four page article with descriptions, pictures, and prices for eight of the head and neck restraint devices out there -- quite useful.
Steve
- also thinking of getting a restraint
03-21-2004, 07:25 PM
#32
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Originally posted by buckdr1
Adam, I have an Isaac, just got it in time for Feb's Sebring. Love it.
Saying it took extra time to removed the Isaac pins, assuming that you get the upgraded one w/ the push button release, I can't see a child even taking that long! Push the button, maybe wiggle, and pull the pin out. 15 seconds at most. Now I agree, not all corner workers /EMT's have seen them, I've taken to make it a point that word is passed on that an Isaac is at the track
Bill
Adam, I have an Isaac, just got it in time for Feb's Sebring. Love it.
Saying it took extra time to removed the Isaac pins, assuming that you get the upgraded one w/ the push button release, I can't see a child even taking that long! Push the button, maybe wiggle, and pull the pin out. 15 seconds at most. Now I agree, not all corner workers /EMT's have seen them, I've taken to make it a point that word is passed on that an Isaac is at the track
Bill
03-22-2004, 12:23 AM
#33
One point for those of you considering the HANS. The shoulder belts must be no more than 5 inches apart (recommended distance 4" or less). If the belts are too far apart, the belts will slide off the lateral aspect of the HANS device. Your seat and/or shoulder belt mounts may have to be modified. You may be able to get by with slightly wider belt spacing if you have a sternum protector to keep your shoulder belts together. I purchased a HANS and used it for the first time this weekend (after having a new shoulder belt mounting bracket fabricated).
The device does modestly restrict your ability to rotate your head. It is more of an issue looking for traffic in the paddock than it is on the racetrack. On the track, it wasn't a significant impediment. But on one tight 120 degree turn, I did consistently reach the maximum head rotation allowed by the device when I rotated my head to look through the corner
The device does modestly restrict your ability to rotate your head. It is more of an issue looking for traffic in the paddock than it is on the racetrack. On the track, it wasn't a significant impediment. But on one tight 120 degree turn, I did consistently reach the maximum head rotation allowed by the device when I rotated my head to look through the corner
03-22-2004, 01:12 AM
#34
PRG said: I purchased a HANS and used it for the first time this weekend (after having a new shoulder belt mounting bracket fabricated).
How does this help? I have seen scroth belts that go 3" to 2" around the hans flanges..not a great idea to me. The seats usually have holes precut for the sholder harness so what are you actually changing to get the 4"?
How does this help? I have seen scroth belts that go 3" to 2" around the hans flanges..not a great idea to me. The seats usually have holes precut for the sholder harness so what are you actually changing to get the 4"?
03-22-2004, 01:22 AM
#35
Race Director
Originally posted by PedalFaster
While I certainly don't think one would hurt, I wouldn't consider a neck collar a viable safety device for high speed collisions. Consider that a typical human head weighs 20+ pounds. In a very mellow 20 G collision, that head will be exerting 400 pounds of force. I've never seen a neck collar that I'd trust to restrain 400 pounds.
While I certainly don't think one would hurt, I wouldn't consider a neck collar a viable safety device for high speed collisions. Consider that a typical human head weighs 20+ pounds. In a very mellow 20 G collision, that head will be exerting 400 pounds of force. I've never seen a neck collar that I'd trust to restrain 400 pounds.
03-22-2004, 01:23 AM
#36
RE: HANS I think there is some misinformation. I believe the HANS does give lateral support. In fact my understanding is that the HANS is a totally position dependant device and loncks you head to your shoulders. Docs understand them because they work similar to their halos for fixing the head to the spine for broken backs.
Re: Isaac, it is a velocity dependant device. The only of its kind. It is lhigh tech and low tech at the same time. AS long as the piston have resistence you have function. Even id there is no resistence you have a position dependant device upon full extension. Remember in a 20G crash your belts can stretch 10 inches. The Isaac will stop your head within that range by their test in a position dependant way. However, the intended way is to stop your head before the end of the tether relative to the velocity of impact. So slow impacts you get more deceleration and higher impacts you get a shjort deceleration period befoer the damper basically lock up. This way your eyeballs don't pop out of their sockets. AS to the angle of force being a vector vs hortizontal...God gave you a sterno cleido mastoid mucsle. It acts amazingly like the Isaac in a very similar plane. I can't argue with natures design. Docs don't understand much physics and fewer will take the time to eduacte themselves on the device. Also for those people worried about helmet warrantees the ISACC can be glued to the helmet so as to not **** off the helmet guys.
I wear an Isaac but wish there were more big sactioning bodies which would approve it from a comfort level of hey even F1 uses HANS so why shouldn't I? Costs are similar.
Workers understand HANS and ISAAC so extrication really is not an issue anymore but I think Isaac is easier quicker and gives the most comfort of all the systems.
Re: Isaac, it is a velocity dependant device. The only of its kind. It is lhigh tech and low tech at the same time. AS long as the piston have resistence you have function. Even id there is no resistence you have a position dependant device upon full extension. Remember in a 20G crash your belts can stretch 10 inches. The Isaac will stop your head within that range by their test in a position dependant way. However, the intended way is to stop your head before the end of the tether relative to the velocity of impact. So slow impacts you get more deceleration and higher impacts you get a shjort deceleration period befoer the damper basically lock up. This way your eyeballs don't pop out of their sockets. AS to the angle of force being a vector vs hortizontal...God gave you a sterno cleido mastoid mucsle. It acts amazingly like the Isaac in a very similar plane. I can't argue with natures design. Docs don't understand much physics and fewer will take the time to eduacte themselves on the device. Also for those people worried about helmet warrantees the ISACC can be glued to the helmet so as to not **** off the helmet guys.
I wear an Isaac but wish there were more big sactioning bodies which would approve it from a comfort level of hey even F1 uses HANS so why shouldn't I? Costs are similar.
Workers understand HANS and ISAAC so extrication really is not an issue anymore but I think Isaac is easier quicker and gives the most comfort of all the systems.
03-22-2004, 01:39 AM
#37
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Has anyone used the Schroth HANS-specific harnesses?
I have (and am) making subtantial investments in safety equipment, and a H&N restraint is definitely on the "to do soon" list. (Working on fuel & fire systems at the moment.) This thread is very timely...thanks for all the good info.
I have (and am) making subtantial investments in safety equipment, and a H&N restraint is definitely on the "to do soon" list. (Working on fuel & fire systems at the moment.) This thread is very timely...thanks for all the good info.
03-22-2004, 09:52 AM
#38
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Guys,
I am close to buying a HANS but am wondering a little about how close you have to be to the ideal seat angle. They sell four types. One each for Vertical, Slightly Inclined, Semi-Reclined and Reclined seat positions.
I have two race cars, a 924S with a Momo Nascar seat and a BRD Formula Vee car. I want to use one HANS for both. The Nascar seat clearly requires the HANS no 20 for the Slightly Inclined position. The BRD probably fits between the no 20 (slightly inclined) and the no 30 (Semi-Reclined) so I am hoping that the one HANS device will work as buying two seems like a bit of a stretch.
Does anyone have any experience using the same HANS device in cars with slightly different seat positions?
gd
I am close to buying a HANS but am wondering a little about how close you have to be to the ideal seat angle. They sell four types. One each for Vertical, Slightly Inclined, Semi-Reclined and Reclined seat positions.
I have two race cars, a 924S with a Momo Nascar seat and a BRD Formula Vee car. I want to use one HANS for both. The Nascar seat clearly requires the HANS no 20 for the Slightly Inclined position. The BRD probably fits between the no 20 (slightly inclined) and the no 30 (Semi-Reclined) so I am hoping that the one HANS device will work as buying two seems like a bit of a stretch.
Does anyone have any experience using the same HANS device in cars with slightly different seat positions?
gd
03-22-2004, 09:59 AM
#39
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Originally posted by GeoffD
Guys,
I am close to buying a HANS but am wondering a little about how close you have to be to the ideal seat angle. They sell four types. One each for Vertical, Slightly Inclined, Semi-Reclined and Reclined seat positions.
I have two race cars, a 924S with a Momo Nascar seat and a BRD Formula Vee car. I want to use one HANS for both. The Nascar seat clearly requires the HANS no 20 for the Slightly Inclined position. The BRD probably fits between the no 20 (slightly inclined) and the no 30 (Semi-Reclined) so I am hoping that the one HANS device will work as buying two seems like a bit of a stretch.
Does anyone have any experience using the same HANS device in cars with slightly different seat positions?
gd
Guys,
I am close to buying a HANS but am wondering a little about how close you have to be to the ideal seat angle. They sell four types. One each for Vertical, Slightly Inclined, Semi-Reclined and Reclined seat positions.
I have two race cars, a 924S with a Momo Nascar seat and a BRD Formula Vee car. I want to use one HANS for both. The Nascar seat clearly requires the HANS no 20 for the Slightly Inclined position. The BRD probably fits between the no 20 (slightly inclined) and the no 30 (Semi-Reclined) so I am hoping that the one HANS device will work as buying two seems like a bit of a stretch.
Does anyone have any experience using the same HANS device in cars with slightly different seat positions?
gd
I had a 20 degree that I used with my SRF. Tried to use it in a Skippy car and it would not work. With the Radical, I switched to a 40 (which is perfect for the Stohr) and it worked fine in the SRF as well.
My experience says you should go with the 30. Hubbard-Downing is really good about exchanging if that proves to not work for you.
03-22-2004, 12:13 PM
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Thanks Mark!
That's exactly the kind of experience I was looking for. In fact, I have a pad in my 924S Nascar seat that moves my butt forward a little to keep my head lower in the car and this effectively increases the recline angle of the seat so a 30 might just work out OK. I do the same thing in the FV car to keep the top of my helmet a couple of inches below the roll hoop.
I think its time to call Hubbard-Downing!
gd
That's exactly the kind of experience I was looking for. In fact, I have a pad in my 924S Nascar seat that moves my butt forward a little to keep my head lower in the car and this effectively increases the recline angle of the seat so a 30 might just work out OK. I do the same thing in the FV car to keep the top of my helmet a couple of inches below the roll hoop.
I think its time to call Hubbard-Downing!
gd
03-22-2004, 09:01 PM
#41
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in a test w/ professional EMTs extracting a driver (I assume test dummy) from an inverted car, it took 90 seconds w/ the HANS and 60 seconds w/ the Isaac.
03-23-2004, 02:21 PM
#42
HANS device should provide lateral support.... certainly it prevents your neck from twisting... important since most real-world impacts are at an angle which puts some amount of twisting motion into the car.
Also is is important to look at the total system of seats, belts, bars, braces etc. It all has to work together. Our club has an active debate on this which so far has mostly revealed a lack of definitive info.... as pointed out, most manufacturers won't recommend other products for legal reasons.
Some questions we have asked....
Is it safe to use 5-points with a stock seat? Stock seats are designed to compress, and work with self-tensioning belts. With 5-points this could put the lap belt right on the soft abdomin... not good.
How about roll bars with stock seats? The interior of the car is a system of padding and airbags designed to cushion impacts. A roll bar is a big chunk of metal that can crush bones ... even with SFI padding... What if the seat breaks in a heavy rear impact (which they very well could).... the belt bar will hit you right at the base of the neck... not good.
My non-scientific sense is that piecemeal modification of professionally designed and tested factory safety systems is a crapshoot... either go with a complete race setup, or stay stock....any thoughts?
Also is is important to look at the total system of seats, belts, bars, braces etc. It all has to work together. Our club has an active debate on this which so far has mostly revealed a lack of definitive info.... as pointed out, most manufacturers won't recommend other products for legal reasons.
Some questions we have asked....
Is it safe to use 5-points with a stock seat? Stock seats are designed to compress, and work with self-tensioning belts. With 5-points this could put the lap belt right on the soft abdomin... not good.
How about roll bars with stock seats? The interior of the car is a system of padding and airbags designed to cushion impacts. A roll bar is a big chunk of metal that can crush bones ... even with SFI padding... What if the seat breaks in a heavy rear impact (which they very well could).... the belt bar will hit you right at the base of the neck... not good.
My non-scientific sense is that piecemeal modification of professionally designed and tested factory safety systems is a crapshoot... either go with a complete race setup, or stay stock....any thoughts?
03-23-2004, 03:46 PM
#43
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The HANS will not protect you enough in a side impact. If you look at the angles of the straps you will see why. That is why many drivers are using head bolster seats. This will provide side impact protection.
03-23-2004, 04:05 PM
#44
Mitch yes in a direct side impact like a t-bone the straps will not provide much tension.... there is a "collar" effect in that the side of the helmet will lock against the device, but I'm not sure that does anything. Also in my car, the top of my helmet hits my roll cage... in a driver side impact my head would actually get pushed right... probably looking at a nice compression injury... scares the s**t out of me.... if I lower my seat I lose visibility....just goes to show that every safety device is also an accident waiting to happen....
Probably time to pull out the wallet and get head bolster seat.... thanks for the advice.
Probably time to pull out the wallet and get head bolster seat.... thanks for the advice.
03-23-2004, 04:31 PM
#45
Race Director
Well this entire safety debate leads to a really fundamental realization.
Racing is dangerious. Track driving is dangerious.
Back 50-60 years ago most safety devices did not exist. People still raced. People got badly hurt and died. In some crazy way it was just "a part of the sport". In the days since saftey has made some substantail leaps and bounds. This has been spured on by Technology, Specific incidents, and certain highly regarded drivers (Jackie Stewart comes to mind).
Modern safety devices have largely insulted drivers and fans from the carnage of years ago. It has also seemed to lessen the danger. Simply put today's safety equipment has reduce the risk of injury and death from the vast majority of types incidents. In fact many types of incidents are now "walkaway" able and that it makes the danger appear less. Of course when one of those less common incidents happen it brings much greater attention. In some case it can create a panic about that same thing happening to everyone.
I know this sounds harsh, but I would venture to guess that like car performance we are getting much less return for a safety bucks than years ago. The safety benefit from simple seat belts is really much more than a Hans or any other neck restraint. That said we all clearly see the need for at least simple seat belts. The cost vs benefit equation is highly pushed to belts. Racers have grown accustomed to and value 5 or 6 point belts, roll cages, race seat and fire suits for racing. While we may argue about which type of seat and the routing for belts and such we all seem to agree that these things are worth cost. For drivers in DE the feeling are mixed on stock equipment vs partial combos of equipment.
So back to this debate about neck restraints.
Firstly... Driving without a neck restraint is not recipe for instant injury or death on the track. Alot of guys have been in alot of incidents and emerged to drive another day.
Secondly... I guess that some type of neck restraint is better than nothing.
Thirdly... No neck restraint, even the "best" will 100% insulate you from injury or death in case of an incident.
Fourthly... the only reliable way to prevent injury or death is to NOT have and incident. Best way to prevent incidents is not race or track drive at all.
Therefore this comes down to you as a driver's comfort level with risk. Both the risk of having an incident and the risks of injury from an incident. In alot of cases ruding incident risks involves going slower (not fun) or can be cause be others (mechanical or bonehead next to you) and are not easily controlled. In alot cases safety gear does not cause you to go any slower, but it does cost money. So what it comes down to is how much is it worth? To do this you needed to know the risks since the costs pretty easy to figure.
Now a Head & neck support can prevent a fatal injury. Therefore its reward seems quite high. However what is the real likelyhood that you will be involved in an incident where it would be usefull? Well that is really hard to determine. I guess you could attempt to gather data on incident types and try to calcualte a risk level. How accurate would it be? What would it say. For every lap I have a 1 in 10,000 chance of needing it. So how much $$ is that really worth? Hell I don't know.
So.... well I really don't know where I was going with this other than these are not "easy" decisions. Especially for "budget" racers. That said I seriously considering a HANS or IAASC and seat with head restrings (right now a sparco touring model). Luckily for me I probably will not be racing for a few months so I get chance to think about this. I guess that was really where I was going.
Safety is really all in your head. It is a way of metally justifying the risk that you take whenever you go on the track. It is hard to have fun and be fast if you are always considering the risks. Sure you need to beaware, but to focus on them while drivng will cause you to lose your edge. Problem is that when ever something happens, new technology is introduced, or someone respected speaks it can reset our risk comfort meters so that what a perfectly acceptable risk yesterday seems downright scary today. Of course the best thing is that over time the chances of injury or death are reduced thus preserving ourselves and more of our friends for many years to come.
Racing is dangerious. Track driving is dangerious.
Back 50-60 years ago most safety devices did not exist. People still raced. People got badly hurt and died. In some crazy way it was just "a part of the sport". In the days since saftey has made some substantail leaps and bounds. This has been spured on by Technology, Specific incidents, and certain highly regarded drivers (Jackie Stewart comes to mind).
Modern safety devices have largely insulted drivers and fans from the carnage of years ago. It has also seemed to lessen the danger. Simply put today's safety equipment has reduce the risk of injury and death from the vast majority of types incidents. In fact many types of incidents are now "walkaway" able and that it makes the danger appear less. Of course when one of those less common incidents happen it brings much greater attention. In some case it can create a panic about that same thing happening to everyone.
I know this sounds harsh, but I would venture to guess that like car performance we are getting much less return for a safety bucks than years ago. The safety benefit from simple seat belts is really much more than a Hans or any other neck restraint. That said we all clearly see the need for at least simple seat belts. The cost vs benefit equation is highly pushed to belts. Racers have grown accustomed to and value 5 or 6 point belts, roll cages, race seat and fire suits for racing. While we may argue about which type of seat and the routing for belts and such we all seem to agree that these things are worth cost. For drivers in DE the feeling are mixed on stock equipment vs partial combos of equipment.
So back to this debate about neck restraints.
Firstly... Driving without a neck restraint is not recipe for instant injury or death on the track. Alot of guys have been in alot of incidents and emerged to drive another day.
Secondly... I guess that some type of neck restraint is better than nothing.
Thirdly... No neck restraint, even the "best" will 100% insulate you from injury or death in case of an incident.
Fourthly... the only reliable way to prevent injury or death is to NOT have and incident. Best way to prevent incidents is not race or track drive at all.
Therefore this comes down to you as a driver's comfort level with risk. Both the risk of having an incident and the risks of injury from an incident. In alot of cases ruding incident risks involves going slower (not fun) or can be cause be others (mechanical or bonehead next to you) and are not easily controlled. In alot cases safety gear does not cause you to go any slower, but it does cost money. So what it comes down to is how much is it worth? To do this you needed to know the risks since the costs pretty easy to figure.
Now a Head & neck support can prevent a fatal injury. Therefore its reward seems quite high. However what is the real likelyhood that you will be involved in an incident where it would be usefull? Well that is really hard to determine. I guess you could attempt to gather data on incident types and try to calcualte a risk level. How accurate would it be? What would it say. For every lap I have a 1 in 10,000 chance of needing it. So how much $$ is that really worth? Hell I don't know.
So.... well I really don't know where I was going with this other than these are not "easy" decisions. Especially for "budget" racers. That said I seriously considering a HANS or IAASC and seat with head restrings (right now a sparco touring model). Luckily for me I probably will not be racing for a few months so I get chance to think about this. I guess that was really where I was going.
Safety is really all in your head. It is a way of metally justifying the risk that you take whenever you go on the track. It is hard to have fun and be fast if you are always considering the risks. Sure you need to beaware, but to focus on them while drivng will cause you to lose your edge. Problem is that when ever something happens, new technology is introduced, or someone respected speaks it can reset our risk comfort meters so that what a perfectly acceptable risk yesterday seems downright scary today. Of course the best thing is that over time the chances of injury or death are reduced thus preserving ourselves and more of our friends for many years to come.