Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

This Miata Driver Passes 17 Cars in Just One Lap

 
Old 07-06-2019, 05:07 PM
  #16  
fatbillybob
User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,688
Received 6 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
He knew what he was doing and drove with the confidence of no 13/13 rule.

That is racing and looked like a lot of fun!
That is just typical NASA and SCCA "non contact" racing. You should see my C5Z06 that started as a 7000 mile pristine streetcar with after some years racing not a single body panel is in line.

Fenders make you brave!
fatbillybob is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 05:35 PM
  #17  
Gator_86_951
Spell Checker
Rennlist Member
 
Gator_86_951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: City of Alexandria, VA (second home: Tokyo, Japan)
Posts: 18,626
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
Agreed. You can't drive like that with an uninsured car and no lap timer. You can tell just by watching.
Mos def can’t drive with that sort of king fu style without it.

I realize it’s a speed secret of yours, but I suspect you agree there is at least 3-4 tenths out there for this guy if he had a Black Forest high precision one day coo coo clock lap timer.
Gator_86_951 is online now  
Old 07-06-2019, 06:49 PM
  #18  
hf1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
hf1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
No 13/13 means different passing rules.
No. 13/13 is the penalty (consequence) for breaking passing rules. The rules (what is or isn't allowed) could be different in their own right regardless of what the penalty may be for breaking them. Apples and oranges. Spec Miata could also have 13/13-like penalties for breaking their own passing rules. That wouldn't make their rules the same.
hf1 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 06:58 PM
  #19  
Thundermoose
User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 818
Received 10 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
No. 13/13 is the penalty (consequence) for breaking passing rules. The rules (what is or isn't allowed) could be different in their own right regardless of what the penalty may be for breaking them. Apples and oranges. Spec Miata could also have 13/13-like penalties for breaking their own passing rules. That wouldn't make their rules the same.
This worksheet does a good job of describing penalties and consequences for NASA TX (which includes SM penalties) as an example.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...aTd0EI/pubhtml
Thundermoose is online now  
Old 07-06-2019, 07:19 PM
  #20  
jdistefa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
jdistefa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Onterrible
Posts: 7,051
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 10 Posts
Default

Meh. He never drove on the grass once.
jdistefa is online now  
Old 07-06-2019, 07:41 PM
  #21  
hf1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
hf1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
Meh. He never drove on the grass once.
They don't have grass in California.
hf1 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:01 PM
  #22  
ohenryinatlanta
User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: atlanta, georgia
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

nice driving but it looks like that car had a healthy motor and stickers..... there is a huge delta in car prep in NASA
ohenryinatlanta is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:34 PM
  #23  
winders
Super User
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,170
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
They don't have grass in California.
I wonder what that green stuff is all over the place then? Synthetic turf?
winders is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:41 PM
  #24  
LuigiVampa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
LuigiVampa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 10,192
Received 44 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
No. 13/13 is the penalty (consequence) for breaking passing rules. The rules (what is or isn't allowed) could be different in their own right regardless of what the penalty may be for breaking them. Apples and oranges. Spec Miata could also have 13/13-like penalties for breaking their own passing rules. That wouldn't make their rules the same.
The consequence doesn't affect the rule?

If the racing in the video had 13/13 it would look a little different.
LuigiVampa is offline  
The following users liked this post:
winders (07-06-2019)
Old 07-06-2019, 08:42 PM
  #25  
winders
Super User
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,170
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
The consequence doesn't affect the rule?

If the racing in the video had 13/13 it would look a little different.
Of course you are correct. I have no idea what hf1 is thinking....
winders is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:51 PM
  #26  
hf1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
hf1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
The consequence doesn't affect the rule?

If the racing in the video had 13/13 it would look a little different.
The rule is the rule: what is or isn't allowed. The penalty is the consequence for breaking it. Not sure how this distinction is confusing to a lawyer. Of course, if the penalty (consequence) is bigger, then the incentives to break the rule would be smaller. That doesn't mean that same penalties imply same rules.

You could have 13/13 penalty for breaking a simple rule: "Always leave racing room upon overlap with another car." Having that rule without the 13/13 penalty (or with a much smaller penalty) would result in more contact than having that rule with a 13/13 penalty. As I said, 13/13 has nothing to do with the rules, but has a lot to do with the incentives to break them.
hf1 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:56 PM
  #27  
mobius911
User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 17
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thought this might be helpful. This is the list of NASA standard penalties from the NASA CCR. Penalties also incur points which can lead to other actions if enough points are accrued.

27.11 Issuing Penalties

The Race Director may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that he or she follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:
  1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
  2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
  3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
  4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
  5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
  6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension
  7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum)
  8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum)
These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The Race Director may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations.
mobius911 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 09:40 PM
  #28  
LuigiVampa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
LuigiVampa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 10,192
Received 44 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
The rule is the rule: what is or isn't allowed. The penalty is the consequence for breaking it. Not sure how this distinction is confusing to a lawyer. Of course, if the penalty (consequence) is bigger, then the incentives to break the rule would be smaller. That doesn't mean that same penalties imply same rules.

You could have 13/13 penalty for breaking a simple rule: "Always leave racing room upon overlap with another car." Having that rule without the 13/13 penalty (or with a much smaller penalty) would result in more contact than having that rule with a 13/13 penalty. As I said, 13/13 has nothing to do with the rules, but has a lot to do with the incentives to break them.
It's actually called the 13/13 RULE.

Rule and penalty work in tandem and you can't have one without the other. Dostoevsky didn't call his book Crime or Punishment.

I said he couldn't drive that way with the 13/13 rule.
LuigiVampa is offline  
The following users liked this post:
I am the Walrus (07-06-2019)
Old 07-06-2019, 09:53 PM
  #29  
hf1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
hf1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Well it’s Crime And Punishment, obviously two different words denoting two different things. For the crime of taking a dump on my lawn, the punishment could be a squirt with a water pistol or a bullet to your head. Same crime, two punishments. On the other hand, two different crimes could result in the same punishment. Two crimes, same punishment. Finally, two crimes could result in two different punishments. See the diff between crime and punishment (rules and penalties)?

He could drive exactly like that even with 13/13 penalty if his driving wasn’t breaking any passing rules (which I think it wasn’t). The only difference would be that the cars he was passing would have even less incentive to make contact with him if that meant breaking the passing rule and receiving a 13/13 as penalty.
hf1 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 11:09 PM
  #30  
LuigiVampa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
LuigiVampa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 10,192
Received 44 Likes on 28 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
Well it’s Crime And Punishment, obviously two different words denoting two different things. For the crime of taking a dump on my lawn, the punishment could be a squirt with a water pistol or a bullet to your head. Same crime, two punishments. On the other hand, two different crimes could result in the same punishment. Two crimes, same punishment. Finally, two crimes could result in two different punishments. See the diff between crime and punishment (rules and penalties)?

He could drive exactly like that even with 13/13 penalty if his driving wasn’t breaking any passing rules (which I think it wasn’t). The only difference would be that the cars he was passing would have even less incentive to make contact with him if that meant breaking the passing rule and receiving a 13/13 as penalty.
The sentence in bold is exactly my point except to say both the driver in the video, as well as the cars being passed, would have to take what you just said into consideration.

And as some completely gratuitous legal advice you would be fine with shooting people in the head with a water gun but a shot to the head with a gun would be problematic.

If you ran out because you saw me taking a dump on your lawn and shot me in the head that would be manslaughter.

If I was a serial pooper (and I could totally see myself doing that) and you waiting for me, ran out, and then shot me in the head, that would be murder.

Just stick with the water gun. A paintball gun would still be battery, but a judge would most likely throw the charge out as most judges don't take kindly to serial poopers!

So what would you be most likely to do? Water gun? No brainer yes. Paint ball gun? Maybe. Bullet to the head? Probably not (I hope!)

The consequence has a relationship to the crime. That is the way all rules systems work and was my point.
LuigiVampa is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: