fatbillybob

That is just typical NASA and SCCA "non contact" racing. You should see my C5Z06 that started as a 7000 mile pristine streetcar with after some years racing not a single body panel is in line.

Fenders make you brave!

Gator_86_951

Mos def can’t drive with that sort of king fu style without it.

I realize it’s a speed secret of yours, but I suspect you agree there is at least 3-4 tenths out there for this guy if he had a Black Forest high precision one day coo coo clock lap timer.

hf1

No. 13/13 is the penalty (consequence) for breaking passing rules. The rules (what is or isn't allowed) could be different in their own right regardless of what the penalty may be for breaking them. Apples and oranges. Spec Miata could also have 13/13-like penalties for breaking their own passing rules. That wouldn't make their rules the same.

Thundermoose

This worksheet does a good job of describing penalties and consequences for NASA TX (which includes SM penalties) as an example.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...aTd0EI/pubhtml

jdistefa

Meh. He never drove on the grass once.

hf1

They don't have grass in California.

ohenryinatlanta

nice driving but it looks like that car had a healthy motor and stickers..... there is a huge delta in car prep in NASA

winders

I wonder what that green stuff is all over the place then? Synthetic turf?

LuigiVampa

The consequence doesn't affect the rule?

If the racing in the video had 13/13 it would look a little different.

winders

Of course you are correct. I have no idea what hf1 is thinking....

hf1

The rule is the rule: what is or isn't allowed. The penalty is the consequence for breaking it. Not sure how this distinction is confusing to a lawyer. Of course, if the penalty (consequence) is bigger, then the incentives to break the rule would be smaller. That doesn't mean that same penalties imply same rules.

You could have 13/13 penalty for breaking a simple rule: "Always leave racing room upon overlap with another car." Having that rule without the 13/13 penalty (or with a much smaller penalty) would result in more contact than having that rule with a 13/13 penalty. As I said, 13/13 has nothing to do with the rules, but has a lot to do with the incentives to break them.

mobius911

Thought this might be helpful. This is the list of NASA standard penalties from the NASA CCR. Penalties also incur points which can lead to other actions if enough points are accrued.

27.11 Issuing Penalties

The Race Director may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that he or she follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum)
8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum)

These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The Race Director may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations.

LuigiVampa

It's actually called the 13/13 RULE.

Rule and penalty work in tandem and you can't have one without the other. Dostoevsky didn't call his book Crime or Punishment.

I said he couldn't drive that way with the 13/13 rule.

hf1

Well it’s Crime And Punishment, obviously two different words denoting two different things. For the crime of taking a dump on my lawn, the punishment could be a squirt with a water pistol or a bullet to your head. Same crime, two punishments. On the other hand, two different crimes could result in the same punishment. Two crimes, same punishment. Finally, two crimes could result in two different punishments. See the diff between crime and punishment (rules and penalties)?

He could drive exactly like that even with 13/13 penalty if his driving wasn’t breaking any passing rules (which I think it wasn’t). The only difference would be that the cars he was passing would have even less incentive to make contact with him if that meant breaking the passing rule and receiving a 13/13 as penalty.

LuigiVampa

The sentence in bold is exactly my point except to say both the driver in the video, as well as the cars being passed, would have to take what you just said into consideration.

And as some completely gratuitous legal advice you would be fine with shooting people in the head with a water gun but a shot to the head with a gun would be problematic.

If you ran out because you saw me taking a dump on your lawn and shot me in the head that would be manslaughter.

If I was a serial pooper (and I could totally see myself doing that) and you waiting for me, ran out, and then shot me in the head, that would be murder.

Just stick with the water gun. A paintball gun would still be battery, but a judge would most likely throw the charge out as most judges don't take kindly to serial poopers!

So what would you be most likely to do? Water gun? No brainer yes. Paint ball gun? Maybe. Bullet to the head? Probably not (I hope!)

The consequence has a relationship to the crime. That is the way all rules systems work and was my point.