Do lap timers encourage bad behavior?
06-05-2019, 08:19 PM
#76
From an insurer standpoint, I do find it odd that opentrack doesn't seem to have any underwriting process.
But I would still say that, even if there's a correlation between having insurance versus crash rate, correlation doesn't mean causation and having insurance may not be causing drivers to drive substantially more aggressively. For example, some drivers who want to drive aggressively may purchase insurance more often because it's available, but they might drive comparably aggressively with or without the insurance. In my case, I do have track insurance for every event (and car over $100K), but I don't think the insurance induces me to drive more aggressively, since I remain cognizant of the deductible, possibility of injury, etc.; the insurance provides financial peace of mind, but doesn't really change my overall risk perception since the safety risk eclipses concern about financial risk.
But I would still say that, even if there's a correlation between having insurance versus crash rate, correlation doesn't mean causation and having insurance may not be causing drivers to drive substantially more aggressively. For example, some drivers who want to drive aggressively may purchase insurance more often because it's available, but they might drive comparably aggressively with or without the insurance. In my case, I do have track insurance for every event (and car over $100K), but I don't think the insurance induces me to drive more aggressively, since I remain cognizant of the deductible, possibility of injury, etc.; the insurance provides financial peace of mind, but doesn't really change my overall risk perception since the safety risk eclipses concern about financial risk.
Yeah, I understand where you are coming from...
Just about every person I know (by where I live) has all of a sudden gotten faster when they got track insurance.
I rotate around with 3 coach's. Two of the three are extremely fast drivers. They told me they wouldn't drive the way they do if they didn't have track insurance (generally; this topic comes up when I have a discussion of how fast they were going through certain corners).
Those same 2; said that if I wanted to go faster then what I was doing then the probability of having an incident was high while I was trying to get there. They strongly suggested getting the track insurance for this reason. It is pretty affordable if you are getting insurance for less then $100K (3.3% annual premium and 5% deductible).
Last edited by yesyoucan; 06-05-2019 at 08:45 PM.
06-05-2019, 09:37 PM
#79
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Widespread track insurance is a relatively new thing.
Most of the quickest people I know drive sensibly, and don't take risks just because they have coverage. Few folks I know take out cover, especially for DE and trackday events, unless they have 991.2, GT3 and GT3RS, later 991 GT3 Cup cars or GT4 ClubSport cars.
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Last edited by ProCoach; 06-05-2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Added "widespread" and qualified cars known to take cover.
06-05-2019, 10:05 PM
#80
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Track insurance has been around for over 10 years, probably 15 or more. I think with the 997 and later cars becoming so much more expensive, it's become a more standard thing for people to get insurance.
06-05-2019, 10:12 PM
#81
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Matt, it's been around for awhile, but the use wasn't widespread beyond competition cars until the last few years. I'd like to see your numbers, if you have them.
I agree with your second sentence. The first people saw using it on a regular basis were the aluminum tub cars, like the 981 and 991 series, where it's MUCH easier to "total" a car than the steel body cars, even the 997 Cup.
As far as people driving "more aggressively" because they have cover, I still don't see that correlation. And I've been at the track more than a thousand days in the last ten years...
I agree with your second sentence. The first people saw using it on a regular basis were the aluminum tub cars, like the 981 and 991 series, where it's MUCH easier to "total" a car than the steel body cars, even the 997 Cup.
As far as people driving "more aggressively" because they have cover, I still don't see that correlation. And I've been at the track more than a thousand days in the last ten years...
06-05-2019, 10:14 PM
#82
06-05-2019, 10:24 PM
#83
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Matt, it's been around for awhile, but the use wasn't widespread beyond competition cars until the last few years. I'd like to see your numbers, if you have them.
I agree with your second sentence. The first people saw using it on a regular basis were the aluminum tub cars, like the 981 and 991 series, where it's MUCH easier to "total" a car than the steel body cars, even the 997 Cup.
As far as people driving "more aggressively" because they have cover, I still don't see that correlation. And I've been at the track more than a thousand days in the last ten years...
I agree with your second sentence. The first people saw using it on a regular basis were the aluminum tub cars, like the 981 and 991 series, where it's MUCH easier to "total" a car than the steel body cars, even the 997 Cup.
As far as people driving "more aggressively" because they have cover, I still don't see that correlation. And I've been at the track more than a thousand days in the last ten years...
06-05-2019, 10:47 PM
#84
Just did an entire race weekend without looking at my lap timer! Would have checked in qualifying but it fell off the window 
06-05-2019, 10:47 PM
#85
Sorry, but I call BS on that one. Must be a Left Coast thing.
Widespread track insurance is a relatively new thing.
Most of the quickest people I know drive sensibly, and don't take risks just because they have coverage. Few folks I know take out cover, especially for DE and trackday events, unless they have 991.2, GT3 and GT3RS, later 991 GT3 Cup cars or GT4 ClubSport cars.
Widespread track insurance is a relatively new thing.
Most of the quickest people I know drive sensibly, and don't take risks just because they have coverage. Few folks I know take out cover, especially for DE and trackday events, unless they have 991.2, GT3 and GT3RS, later 991 GT3 Cup cars or GT4 ClubSport cars.
Some HPDE advance open groups is "cheap man" racing. There is a reason why Lockton wouldn't cover some groups.
I track with Hooked on Driving, Speed District, Exclusive Track Days, Speed SF, Fast Toys club, Track masters and some private days.
There is a big difference in the advance open passing groups and a big reason for it is the proliferation of track insurance. I can give many examples of people I know and the reason they got track insurance and how the attitude and driving changed because of it.
Lockton won't cover Exclusive, SpeedSF and one other group's name that escape me at the moment open passing group. Just about all the guys who believe it is a race have the track insurance.
06-05-2019, 11:37 PM
#86
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06-06-2019, 08:50 AM
#87
Sorry, not B.S.
Some HPDE advance open groups is "cheap man" racing. There is a reason why Lockton wouldn't cover some groups.
There is a big difference in the advance open passing groups and a big reason for it is the proliferation of track insurance. I can give many examples of people I know and the reason they got track insurance and how the attitude and driving changed because of it.
Some HPDE advance open groups is "cheap man" racing. There is a reason why Lockton wouldn't cover some groups.
There is a big difference in the advance open passing groups and a big reason for it is the proliferation of track insurance. I can give many examples of people I know and the reason they got track insurance and how the attitude and driving changed because of it.
As to statement 2 Maybe the big difference in the advance open passing groups is they are "Advance Open Passing"
Honestly, this is some of the most f-d "logic" I have seen and there is a plethora of F-d "logic" that seems to be prevalent around here at the moment...
06-06-2019, 10:53 AM
#88
I use track insurance and my car is relatively inexpensive. I already self-insured once. While it is tempting to think you can just "send it" all the time with insurance, rebuilding is a major pain in time and energy beyond the pure costs. It takes tons of time to find a new shell/chassis, install a cage, take care of the million other things that need to happen to prepare a track car reliably. Plus, some tracks have crazy track damage charges that are not covered by the insurance (e.g., WGI). Insurance is nice to take some of the financial sting away. It cannot compensate for all the other intangibles.
In my small sample of people I know, it is a mixed bag of who has insurance and how they drive. I know a lot of people with insurance that drive very conservatively at DEs in all run groups. I think many people cannot truly afford this sport (e.g., walk away and self-insure), especially those that are younger and drive more modern cars. Most people are respectful of that as a $100k loss is a very significant part of their financial portfolio.
In my small sample of people I know, it is a mixed bag of who has insurance and how they drive. I know a lot of people with insurance that drive very conservatively at DEs in all run groups. I think many people cannot truly afford this sport (e.g., walk away and self-insure), especially those that are younger and drive more modern cars. Most people are respectful of that as a $100k loss is a very significant part of their financial portfolio.
06-06-2019, 11:05 AM
#89
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I know this thread has gone off the rails a little with the talk of insurance and “Racing” in HPDE (just do a search for the event in CA recently that had a pro driving a GT class Audi hitting the instructor in the FR-S (or BR-Z)) differences throughout the country, but I think there is a major flaw in thinking that contact/damage/catastrophic loss is inevitable in this sport.
It used to be that single car contact was rare and multi car contact was unheard of in HPDE’s. Now? Not so much. Are there outside influences, sure, but they’re MUCH more rare than people would like to have you believe.
The car does what the driver tells it.
You are responsible for what happens in the car.
If you can’t figure out when you’re close to the limit, don’t go there.
If you can’t recognize that you’re varying 3-5 mph at the same turn in point, start practicing consistency until you can do it within 1-2 mph (and DON’T use the speedo to do it!!!).
If you can’t recognize you’re in trouble until after you’re off the paved surface, leave more margin until you can.
If you can’t discipline yourself to contain your emotions on track, pull in and calm down until you can.
If you can’t drive with focused concentration and not get sidetracked or distracted by some automated feedback device, whether it be lights/numbers/bar graph in the car, take it out or tape it over.
Smdh...
It used to be that single car contact was rare and multi car contact was unheard of in HPDE’s. Now? Not so much. Are there outside influences, sure, but they’re MUCH more rare than people would like to have you believe.
The car does what the driver tells it.
You are responsible for what happens in the car.
If you can’t figure out when you’re close to the limit, don’t go there.
If you can’t recognize that you’re varying 3-5 mph at the same turn in point, start practicing consistency until you can do it within 1-2 mph (and DON’T use the speedo to do it!!!).
If you can’t recognize you’re in trouble until after you’re off the paved surface, leave more margin until you can.
If you can’t discipline yourself to contain your emotions on track, pull in and calm down until you can.
If you can’t drive with focused concentration and not get sidetracked or distracted by some automated feedback device, whether it be lights/numbers/bar graph in the car, take it out or tape it over.
Smdh...
