911therapy

If you dont use a laptimer whatsoever, how do you benchmark improvement? How do you know if you are learning a skill, or improving a skill? After all, it is called HPDE - High Performance Drivers Education. Note the word Education. If you arent learning or improving, whats the point? I, for one, have no desire to leisurely drive around a race track. I also have zero desire to drive fast and out of control around a race track. I do have a desire to drive fast, in control, but on the edge around a race track. And my barometer for knowing if I am improving and learning.........lap time. Everyone I track with has the same motive and desire. We all compare lap times and sector times. And getting it ride not only feels great...but also yields a time improvement.

RobertR1

It can be quite frustrating to be at a track day where it’s overpacked and your frustration gets the best of you. I don’t know how many people who are happy to goto an event and go through the whole day without a couple of clean laps. It’s not unreasonable to assume many are there for self improvement and benefit from *quality* track time.

my temperament and that of the drivers around me has been often more impacted by the track organizer, the traffic on the track, wasted time due to sessions stoppages, letting mechanically unfit vehicles onto the track than having a laptimer.

It’s easy to focus on the individual driver but in reality, there’s a lot to be said for the atmosphere created by the organization.

177mph

Drivers starting out in HPDE should not be using lap timers period. How do you know if you are learning a skill or improving a skill? Speak to your instructor. That's why they're in the seat next to you. Learning to drive the line, memorizing flag stations, learning to work your way thru traffic, checking your mirrors, giving timely point by's (on the correct side!), identifying visual track markers for turn in and braking points, optimizing shift points, keeping your eyes up, checking your gauges, learning to drive smoothly, avoiding coasting, knowing when a pass is too late to take into a corner, the difference between a black and a red flag - the list goes on.

Learning all these skills EARLY make a difference as the driver progresses. People wonder why some advanced drivers miss flags, don't give point by's, etc. I would argue that they didn't learn the basics.

Green students have a ton of things to learn in their first few days on track. I don't believe lap times are something they should be concerned about until much later. If you've been on track for a while and have been cleared to drive solo - great. Grab your lap timer. But don't forget the basics.

Veloce Raptor

I'm with DerABT. This thread is a solution in search of a problem. What the heck happened that caused the OP's original post?

dgrobs

Some not-so-great behavior on the first day of a 2 day DE in a specific run group.
I will leave it there and let Deans-dream elaborate on his OP if he so desires.
FYI, I witnessed some of it from afar and the rest was 2nd hand info I heard in the paddock and at the next mornings drivers meeting.
It was addressed in the drivers meeting the next morning and the message got through loud and clear. Whether lap timers had anything to do with the first days behavior is open for debate.
If DD wants to elaborate on his OP, he can do that if and when he wants to.
I do know Deans Dream fairly well and he is a very courteous and respectful driver on track. Also a very nice guy. He witnessed some things on track that concerned him and my guess is he was looking for answers as to why the behavior took place in the first place.

Matt Romanowski

I think blaming a data logger is assigning blame instead of looking to find the real cause of the issue.

Data loggers (of all types) are just tools to measure your performance. Performance is everything you do in the car - braking, throttle application, steering input, and ultimately speed. Those in sum make up a lap time. The presence of a logger doesn't make people try to go faster or be more aggressive.

What I've seen happen is that groups forget that DE stands for Driver EDUCATION. How many people have noticed that the groups that focus on the education component are the ones that are spoken of most highly? They are the ones that have classroom sessions, chalk talks, professional drivers come in, data review sessions, etc. These are the groups that have fewer incidents, more aware drivers, and a more fun atmosphere (fun is what we are there to have, right?). They are also the groups that promote people giving people the tools to learn to drive better. Those tools might be on track drills (passing drills, off line entries, no brakes, etc), off track data or review sessions, outside the car videos (Aaron Provaledo outside videos), sit downs with David Murray, and more. Using data as a tool, it makes better drivers. All the different ways we measure better, lead to a quicker lap time.

As has been pointed out, the issues with aggressive, discourteous, and unsafe behavior come from the organizations philosophy and approach. When I run an event, I set out the expectations clearly and concisely so everyone is well aware of what is expected. Doing that, we have a minimal number of issues, lots of great driving, and tons of fun. Events not laying that out don't end up with the same results IMHO.

disden

I have seen some strange behavior over the years, its typically not due to lap timers and chasing laps times. in my opinion, the majority of times I have witnessed such things it all boils down to entitlement and arrogance, which leads to behavior on track that is dangerous and disrespectful.

ProCoach

Bingo.

dgrobs

Yup

LuigiVampa

A lap timer can be a tool, and just like any other tool, it can be used or abused.

In my opinion the real problem is not the lap timer, but the driver, and absent the lap timer the "problem driver" will still be a problem.

TXE36

Agree. I don't seen an otherwise courteous and aware driver going "bad" over a lap timer - and yes I've been there were a potential PB was lost due to traffic but thems the breaks under HPDE rules.

-Mike

Jabs1542

Yes, the real way to solve this is get rid of all throttle controls - if we’re going to be ridiculous we might as well take it to the next level - right?

My approach: Asses need to be addressed with directly, I have been known to call them out by name in the driver’s meeting (while the club generally frowns on that I am a big believer in peer pressure).

TXE36

I've always thought humiliation, applied properly and fairly is a great motivator. Melts snowflakes on the spot.

IMHO, the track is "public", someone not responding to discrete corrections about their behavior does not deserve confidentiality.

-Mike

LuigiVampa

Agreed in principal.

There is a strong motivator among most people not to be "that guy". (....or if talking to a real snowflake, not to be "that non-binary individual")

Steve113

To me it just compounds a "problem driver"
"Problem driver" + "lap Times" = incident
Maybe not right away but it will. Some people still feel that crashing is apart of exploring the cars limits and its expectable in there minds. Very scarry