Do lap timers encourage bad behavior?
06-09-2019, 06:11 PM
#136
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I have no idea why you guys are being so defensive. Very few people commenting on this issue and its the same one's and those same ones are the ones who are saying that it hasn't impacted how they drive.
I track what I'd say is 3 high value cars. For 3.5 years I didn't have track insurance. I started to see some very aggressive driving by people around me (usually much lower value cars). I saw a terrible accident that could not have been avoided no matter how careful one was). I made some inquiries of many people who I track with. Just about every aggressive driver and who has very, very good lap times had track insurance. The ones who dive bomb, ride on your bumper, etc., all had track insurance.
I have no idea how many different groups/tracks that you guys drive with. I drive with quite a few different groups and I can definitely see the difference in driving/attitude with people who have track insurance and those that don't.
Back to my Lockton/open track insurance example. There are 3 HPDE groups in my area where Lockton will specifically not cover the open passing group. The other track groups they will. Open track doesn't discriminate. They will cover everyone. Everyone I talked to, said they go through opentrack because they will cover everything and it only costs $150 for each additional car if its insured value is the same or lower then the highest price car that one has coverage for.
I track what I'd say is 3 high value cars. For 3.5 years I didn't have track insurance. I started to see some very aggressive driving by people around me (usually much lower value cars). I saw a terrible accident that could not have been avoided no matter how careful one was). I made some inquiries of many people who I track with. Just about every aggressive driver and who has very, very good lap times had track insurance. The ones who dive bomb, ride on your bumper, etc., all had track insurance.
I have no idea how many different groups/tracks that you guys drive with. I drive with quite a few different groups and I can definitely see the difference in driving/attitude with people who have track insurance and those that don't.
Back to my Lockton/open track insurance example. There are 3 HPDE groups in my area where Lockton will specifically not cover the open passing group. The other track groups they will. Open track doesn't discriminate. They will cover everyone. Everyone I talked to, said they go through opentrack because they will cover everything and it only costs $150 for each additional car if its insured value is the same or lower then the highest price car that one has coverage for.
My sense is that you're often sharing the track with wealthier people in very expensive cars, non-racing, in a particular area of the country. The people you describe don't seem representative of most of the DE world in the US, hence your impressions regarding the insurance issue not lining up with most of us. But I can believe that (some) rich guys in very expensive cars out west would get opentrack insurance (which caters to more expensive cars) and then drive more recklessly because they have that insurance.
In general, we need to keep in mind that track insurance can attract (1) drivers who want to take more risk and drive more aggressively, (2) drivers who just want some financial protection because writing off the car would be too painful, and (3) drivers who are inherently risk averse, and buy insurance because of that. In the same vein, having insurance could affect driver behavior in various ways: (a) it may encourage some to take more risk, (b) some may hardly be influenced by having the insurance (get it and forget it), and (c) it may influence some drivers to drive less aggressively (e.g., the act of purchasing the insurance may remind a driver of the risk of crashing and cause them to be more cautious). The people you describe seem to be in the 1a category. I suspect that most drivers, including me, are in the 2b category. I doubt that driving on track attracts many people in the 3c category, and the other six categories may be even more rare.
In general, we need to keep in mind that track insurance can attract (1) drivers who want to take more risk and drive more aggressively, (2) drivers who just want some financial protection because writing off the car would be too painful, and (3) drivers who are inherently risk averse, and buy insurance because of that. In the same vein, having insurance could affect driver behavior in various ways: (a) it may encourage some to take more risk, (b) some may hardly be influenced by having the insurance (get it and forget it), and (c) it may influence some drivers to drive less aggressively (e.g., the act of purchasing the insurance may remind a driver of the risk of crashing and cause them to be more cautious). The people you describe seem to be in the 1a category. I suspect that most drivers, including me, are in the 2b category. I doubt that driving on track attracts many people in the 3c category, and the other six categories may be even more rare.
Replace the words "rich guy in a McLaren" with "insurance" in all the examples and I will agree with what yesyoucan is saying.
06-09-2019, 06:38 PM
#137
My sense is that you're often sharing the track with wealthier people in very expensive cars, non-racing, in a particular area of the country. The people you describe don't seem representative of most of the DE world in the US, hence your impressions regarding the insurance issue not lining up with most of us. But I can believe that (some) rich guys in very expensive cars out west would get opentrack insurance (which caters to more expensive cars) and then drive more recklessly because they have that insurance.
In general, we need to keep in mind that track insurance can attract (1) drivers who want to take more risk and drive more aggressively, (2) drivers who just want some financial protection because writing off the car would be too painful, and (3) drivers who are inherently risk averse, and buy insurance because of that. In the same vein, having insurance could affect driver behavior in various ways: (a) it may encourage some to take more risk, (b) some may hardly be influenced by having the insurance (get it and forget it), and (c) it may influence some drivers to drive less aggressively (e.g., the act of purchasing the insurance may remind a driver of the risk of crashing and cause them to be more cautious). The people you describe seem to be in the 1a category. I suspect that most drivers, including me, are in the 2b category. I doubt that driving on track attracts many people in the 3c category, and the other six categories may be even more rare.
In general, we need to keep in mind that track insurance can attract (1) drivers who want to take more risk and drive more aggressively, (2) drivers who just want some financial protection because writing off the car would be too painful, and (3) drivers who are inherently risk averse, and buy insurance because of that. In the same vein, having insurance could affect driver behavior in various ways: (a) it may encourage some to take more risk, (b) some may hardly be influenced by having the insurance (get it and forget it), and (c) it may influence some drivers to drive less aggressively (e.g., the act of purchasing the insurance may remind a driver of the risk of crashing and cause them to be more cautious). The people you describe seem to be in the 1a category. I suspect that most drivers, including me, are in the 2b category. I doubt that driving on track attracts many people in the 3c category, and the other six categories may be even more rare.
06-09-2019, 06:43 PM
#138
Like I said; I research a lot... Haggerty/Lockton will only cover YOUR car. You bang into someone else and they do not cover the other person's car. Opentrack has optional "liability" coverage for $1,000/year. I think the biggest jerks are the ones who take track insurance and do not take the optional liability .. Yeah great; you want to ride on someone's bumper, dive bomb them and you are covered but not the other guys car that you hit into.
06-09-2019, 06:44 PM
#139
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Your posting makes sense.... except for the expensive car thingy. I am the only one who I track with that has it. Most are the affordable type cars. Many people with the more expensive cars refuse to come out to HPDE. They will just do the private thing, dealer days every once in a while.
06-09-2019, 08:21 PM
#140
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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What type of comment is that? and you are a coach?
Like I said; I research a lot... Haggerty/Lockton will only cover YOUR car. You bang into someone else and they do not cover the other person's car. Opentrack has optional "liability" coverage for $1,000/year. I think the biggest jerks are the ones who take track insurance and do not take the optional liability .. Yeah great; you want to ride on someone's bumper, dive bomb them and you are covered but not the other guys car that you hit into.
Like I said; I research a lot... Haggerty/Lockton will only cover YOUR car. You bang into someone else and they do not cover the other person's car. Opentrack has optional "liability" coverage for $1,000/year. I think the biggest jerks are the ones who take track insurance and do not take the optional liability .. Yeah great; you want to ride on someone's bumper, dive bomb them and you are covered but not the other guys car that you hit into.
What type of comment? I merely took what you said and applied it to your situation. Perhaps the root cause of what you see are the people you drive with.
Serious question - how do you know, other than your sixth sense, who has insurance? I have absolutely no idea who around me has insurance and who doesn't. How do you know because it is central to your argument?
Last edited by LuigiVampa; 06-09-2019 at 09:45 PM.
06-09-2019, 09:42 PM
#141
Uh, no.....that's the rookie thing.
Oh yeah, they've got the big circle with the words "HIT ME, I'M COVERED!" on their rear bumper!
If the OP can sniff out who has insurance and who doesn't I'd like him to tell me what the next Powerball numbers will be!
OK, enough.......back to watching today's GP to see if Vettel really got hosed......
Gary
06-09-2019, 09:49 PM
#142
It's a valid comment. A little tongue in cheek, but totally valid. Coach? I guess in the sense I am a PCA instructor I am but coach usually implies a level above that in my mind.
What type of comment? I merely took what you said and applied it to your situation. Perhaps the root cause of what you see are the people you drive with.
Serious question - how do you know, other than your sixth sense, who has insurance? I have absolutely no idea who around me has insurance and who doesn't. How do you know because it is central to your argument?
What type of comment? I merely took what you said and applied it to your situation. Perhaps the root cause of what you see are the people you drive with.
Serious question - how do you know, other than your sixth sense, who has insurance? I have absolutely no idea who around me has insurance and who doesn't. How do you know because it is central to your argument?
It becomes a small community. You talk to one another between sessions, etc. These types of topics do come up.
Anyways; I don't think I have much more to add to this topic. Hope to see some of you guys if you make it out to the left coast. We have great tracks out here and plenty of fast people.
06-09-2019, 10:07 PM
#143
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06-09-2019, 10:10 PM
#144
Mainly laguna Seca , Sonoma and sometimes thunderhill. I’ve been to thermal and cota
cota was a private run group with track rats
in Northern California the hpde groups are usually SpeedSF , exclusive, hooked on driving , speed district , fast toys , track masters and some private track days
cota was a private run group with track rats
in Northern California the hpde groups are usually SpeedSF , exclusive, hooked on driving , speed district , fast toys , track masters and some private track days
06-09-2019, 10:41 PM
#145
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Good to know. Thanks.
06-10-2019, 09:02 AM
#146
Three Wheelin'
Opentrack has optional "liability" coverage for $1,000/year. I think the biggest jerks are the ones who take track insurance and do not take the optional liability .. Yeah great; you want to ride on someone's bumper, dive bomb them and you are covered but not the other guys car that you hit into.
06-10-2019, 09:29 AM
#147
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Seems like they only cover damages to other people's cars you hit if you become "legally responsible" for those damages. To become "legally responsible" in that way, it seems that the waiver we all sign would have to become unenforceable.
06-10-2019, 09:30 AM
#148
Mainly laguna Seca , Sonoma and sometimes thunderhill. I’ve been to thermal and cota
cota was a private run group with track rats
in Northern California the hpde groups are usually SpeedSF , exclusive, hooked on driving , speed district , fast toys , track masters and some private track days
cota was a private run group with track rats
in Northern California the hpde groups are usually SpeedSF , exclusive, hooked on driving , speed district , fast toys , track masters and some private track days
06-10-2019, 12:00 PM
#149
What??? That's Ferrari Club (etc.) speak.
I wasn't sure what you meant before but now I do... Dude, you sound like a newb (and yes, we understand that you own some fast $$$ cars). Don't confuse your own personal opinion with facts. And do not presume to educate those who have much, MUCH more experience than you - none of whom have agreed with anything you've said, BTW.Heck, in your mind I'm also a "coach"... As a matter of fact, I'm a professional!
Last edited by the_vetman; 06-10-2019 at 07:07 PM.
06-10-2019, 12:17 PM
#150
I don't know why you insist on continuing this nonsense. Most of the people I track with have track insurance. Do you mean to say they're ALL driving with reckless abandon???
What??? That's Ferrari Club (etc.) speak. I wasn't sure what you meant before but now I do... Dude, you sound like a newb (and yes, we understand that you own some fast $$$ cars). Don't confuse your own personal opinion with facts. And do not presume to educate those who have much, MUCH more experience than you - none of whom have agreed with anything you've said, BTW.
Heck, in your mind I'm also a "coach"... As a matter of fact, I'm a professional!
What??? That's Ferrari Club (etc.) speak.
I wasn't sure what you meant before but now I do... Dude, you sound like a newb (and yes, we understand that you own some fast $$$ cars). Don't confuse your own personal opinion with facts. And do not presume to educate those who have much, MUCH more experience than you - none of whom have agreed with anything you've said, BTW.Heck, in your mind I'm also a "coach"... As a matter of fact, I'm a professional!
the proliferation of track insurance has caused more incidents , more aggressive driving and used by SOME to go faster and have more risk tolerance .
its easy to see with the higher rate of incidents and with car to car collisions “racing” at hpde events
and yeah ... ppl will readily admit to this in real life ... not on car forums