fatbillybob

You got high level guys needing Chin checkout rides. You got National PCA instructors need Chin checkout rides. Curious...What makes the Chin checkout guy so capable that he can judge pro racers, licensed instructors, SCCA national champions etc? Those Chin guys must be like F1 Super licensed. What do you have to do to be a Chin checkout guy?

DTMiller

It doesn't take super competence to judge baseline competence.

mglobe

Some people lie about being instructors. Shocking, but true.
Some pro racers have no idea how to behave in a DE.
Some SCCA national champions might drive like ********.
Some "advanced run group drivers" are a menace to themselves and others.
Some people lie about everything.

If someone's ego is too large, and their understanding of the responsibilities of the organizers is too small to be given a check ride, then they probably don't belong on the track at the event. Put another way, if someone refused to be checked out, I'd send them home. It's a warning sign.

.

wanna911

It's more verification of stated skillset and confirmation of willingness to abide by Chin standards. It's not that complicated and does not take a pro racer to do.

Funny story, a national PCA instructor and good friend came to Road Atlanta once. First time ever in his fairly new GT3 First lap as he's telling me his long list of accolades with PCA, he drives straight through turn 3 into the grass, no brakes at all. Then proceeded to follow the motorcycle track through the esses.

As I've mentioned before we have had big groups of instructors come from all over the country, some have been miserable, at least when it comes to learning a new track and some just not that great and have been demoted quickly. Some racers far too aggressive treating the event like a race practice session.

It doesn't matter your accolades, a new to you track like Mid Ohio, Barber or Road Atlanta will make you look like a bumbling fool before eating your car. Chin has higher scrutiny levels for these tracks, so expect to check your ego at the door.

It's usually Chins most veteran instructors with good feedback from students that are promoted to doing check rides. The process works and is a good one.

There's a reason Chin is the biggest provider of track days in the country and by and large has a very high rating among attendees. As far as pleasing everybody, I'm sure you know the old addage........

ProCoach

For sure. People who do this are often big fish in small ponds, many have outsized assessments of their own awareness and skill set. This, in itself, does not disqualify someone from the capability to improve, so there is hope. But, Mike's unvarnished observations are supported by the data... As a professional in this field with a toe in many different ponds, it's been my observation, too.

The process, policies, procedure and execution of Chin events have been refined and improved for a long time through many events, all over the country. The sample pool is very large. That's a good thing, for sure.

Mark Dreyer

I recently ran with Chin at Road Atlanta after not having visited that track in several years. I have years of laps at Sebring and can hold my own there as a result. Boy, first session out, did RA ever put me in my place. I’m glad I wasn’t out in the red group I normally run at Sebring.

I needed an entire day to get back to a semblance of respectability there. A few laps with Ron Zitza at the wheel was quite helpful in refreshing my memory.

As others have repeatedly stated, Chin runs an awesome program!

Manifold

What's the big deal with getting a checkout? It's one session in the run group the driver wants to be in, and the checkout instructor will often provide some coaching in the latter half of the session if the driver is doing well. If the driver passes, they continue on in their new run group. If they don't pass, it's obviously good that a checkout was done. Some organizations, including some PCA regions, don't have high standards to become instructors, so being an 'instructor' somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that the guy is even a decent driver.

A checkout instructor with Chin will be someone with ample driving and instructing experience, who Chin knows well from numerous events, and who Chin believes can be trusted to make good judgments about whether drivers should be in the various run groups. The driving ability of a checkout instructor needs to be at the level of a solid Red driver; racing experience is neither required nor of much relevance (and obviously, not all 'licensed racers' are good drivers).

the_vetman

I initially avoided commenting but...... your repeated insistence on "passing everybody out there" is troubling to me. Passing a bunch of other cars means.... pretty much nothing. It means you have a fast car (GT3RS). It says nothing about the driver or his/her ability.

I've run many times with Chin and have instructed for them numerous times. Just like pretty much what everyone else said, my experience has been completely different from yours. There are no "cliques" or good ol' boy syndrome you can sometimes see at PCA events. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about (just like everyone else).

I've also done check out rides for Chin. They don't care if you pass a bunch of cars (again, it means very little). They're looking for car control, track knowledge, situational awareness, watching your mirrors, knowing ALL flag stations, etc. If a checkout instructor went out with you and didn't pass you, there is clearly a reason (or two or many). S/he may not have verbalized or written down all of them so as not to offend you. I know I've done that when I didn't pass someone after a checkout - I was purposely not too critical as to not offend or discourage the student. Perhaps s/he thought you were parking it in corners, perhaps your lines were bad, perhaps you missed flag stations, perhaps you didn't listen to any feedback, perhaps there was a faster car behind you and you were oblivious for a while, who knows, I have no idea. But there was a clear reason why you were held back.

FWIW, Chin passes majority of drivers after checkout rides. What I mean by that is they're not a bunch of pompous ****** sitting around waiting to fail students for "not hitting curbs hard enough". Majority pass; failures are a small minority. I KNOW because I have access to their live checkout ride spreadsheet. It shows bunch of info including who passed and who failed and why.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with Chin. However, their policy is in place for a reason and it works. Most guys think they're great drivers or at least far better drivers than they actually are. FWIW, I got a checkout ride at my first Chin event and when I asked to move up to Red. I also got checkout(s) at tracks that I haven't run with Chin before. Now they know me decently well and don't really ask anymore, but that's AFTER building up mutual trust. ANOTHER POINT: whenever I go to a track I've never driven before, I always try to borrow a fellow instructor during the 1st session (if possible) and have them talk me through the lap. Whether I'm driving or a passenger, this type of ride-along is greatly helpful, I find.

Glyndellis

The Chin model seems a good one - no issues with being checked out and placed appropriately

Veloce Raptor

Right on the money

Dr911

I've been a Chin driver for 4 years and instructor for 2.

They are the most professionally run organization I've driven with, because they ARE professionals.

As such, they run on a business model and the bottom line is closely tied with returning customers.

Chin goes far and above to provide customer satisfaction.

That they do so, for the the large part, without compromising safety is impressive. (My experience has seen far more black flags at any given club event than at a Chin event.)

(I'm not dissing the clubs here--clubs are fuelled by the dedication and passion of volunteers for whom I have thr utmost respect.
Just that clubs vs a professional org are two are different animals.)

My comment here pertains to driver promotion.

One important piece missing (or at least I didn't see it) this thread is HOW do Chin instructors DECIDE to promote and evaluate students.

Here's how:

Chin was the first organization AFAIK to develop a skill rubric. Instructors are expected to use a uniform evaluation table for every student and are expected to give student feedback after every session on track.

There's a very clear method for helping students/instructors quantify driver skill level. Students can see where they are and what needs to be done to advance.

Also Chin has very specific written criteria for a check ride to Yellow, Blue and Red. If a driver wishes to evaluate his/her readiness for a check ride, it's simply a matter of comparing their own the skill level to that of the Yellow or Blue or Red check ride criteria.

The more recently developed SLIP HPDE online evaluation tool emulates the Chin rubric.

To my recollection I have never had a club DE chair show me a written check ride criteria for advancement of student other than what is on the SLIP table and even that is very rarely referenced.
OTOH Chin has emphasized the criteria for a check ride at every instructor meetings and shares written criteria at each instructor meetings.

The point is that, although nothing's perfect, having a written evaluation rubric for check rides
minimizes the SUBJECTIVITY ( or cliquishness if you wish) wrt check rides and student evaluations overall.

And, FWIW, I'm not among the "gifted golden child" drivers who gets on track and is promoted to red the same day.
I am the "blood sweat and tears to shave down every few tenths of a second" driver and still drive in Chin blue and PCA black/red even four years after my first ever Chin day. I am also a much appreciated/sought-after instructor so that bit comes a bit more naturally to me. But I do listen carefully to feedback.

My first Chin event I was given way more critical feedback than I expected/wanted to hear. But I listened very carefully. Then I came back the following month and improved. Then at third Chin event at Rd Atlanta I was promoted to solo.

On that day, I found myself teaching an EXPERIENCED racer friend the importance of vision "look for the flagger and keep your eyes on the bridge coming out of T so and so to avoid being fixated on the concrete barrier."
He said that nobody had ever taught him that because he had "finessed" his way into racing early in the DE process and had never been promoted "through the ranks."

If we are open to learning we can learn something new from each other and at every track day. Ego gets in the way of that.

I like driving with Chin. Best track experiences overall. More track time, better driving, run a tight ship.

TXE36

because their primary function for a driver with an advanced resume is sniffing out lying.

-Mike

the_vetman

OK, I'm responding because you mentioned this multiple times (and I've had a few drinks in me - I've been working overnights! ).

(This post was needlessly harsh-sounding. Sorry, that was not my intent).

Every curb is different and it also depends on how much of the curbing you hit. But it's not necessarily accurate to say or think that a certain car cannot hit any curbing at all.

bcp2011

Andy Pilgrim, who set the record at NCM in the GT2RS, said the same thing (that the car gets too unsettled over curbing unless it's really small) in a seminar where he showed the line and the corner by corner analysis. Granted, it's a different car, but he's a pro and that was his experience. He did say that he took the 1a curbing for the youtube video but in the record lap he avoided most of the curbs (or at least the big portions). His record lap is at the end and even in the commentary he talks about the car being unsettled over curbing:

the_vetman

Thank you for that. Looks like I may have been wrong......

EDIT: OK, now I've had time to review the video and it shows him hitting pretty much every single curb at NCM. Yes, the car may get unsettled if hitting TOO much curbing, but we weren't talking about Cup car/RSR curb jumping either. Street RS hitting ordinary curbs for ordinary track day.