Improving in 2019
04-24-2019, 02:24 PM
#31
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
04-24-2019, 02:26 PM
#32
Instructor
Drive more Street Cars on track! The comfort level is right there for an aggressive race slick with a sharp edge between at and over the limit. I just haven't spent too much time at the limit in high speed corners with cars such as the GT2/3(RS). Will be spending a bit more time pushing the limits of street cars this year in some cool projects. So just being ready to quickly understand what 99%, 100%, and 101% of the limit feels like on a CupR or Cup2 sort of tyre.
04-24-2019, 03:05 PM
#33
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I've found it interesting how lots of people will set out a goal for their driving but then either never define it (what is "be more aggressive?" or "precise"?) and then never have a plan on how to do it.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
04-24-2019, 03:24 PM
#34
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I've found it interesting how lots of people will set out a goal for their driving but then either never define it (what is "be more aggressive?" or "precise"?) and then never have a plan on how to do it.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
I think that's one of the great benefits of a good coach, to work together to define in clinical detail exactly what your goal is, to devise an equally detailed plan to gauge progress and develop highly targeted exercises to get there, all in an incremental, safe and effective way.
Precision to me is the accuracy required by your kinesthetic road reflector drills. It's smaller than 6", because that would be the level required to achieve the appropriate feedback of determining how and where the shoulder/sidewall joint is to the edge of the road/curbing, generally the pavement/curbing seam. Anything more than a Kennedy half-dollar area is not precise enough.
How you practice effectively is to reduce the task to a single parameter, then practice until you achieve at least a modicum of consistency and then move to the next parameter. By breaking things down, not only is it easier to summon the required concentration, it's also easier to measure the efficacy of the outcome, like are you REALLY hitting 180 reflectors in a row?
Great thread. The key is to break it down into the smallest parts, achieve competency in executing those parts and then putting all the parts together, IME.
04-24-2019, 04:20 PM
#35
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Interesting observations.
I think that's one of the great benefits of a good coach, to work together to define in clinical detail exactly what your goal is, to devise an equally detailed plan to gauge progress and develop highly targeted exercises to get there, all in an incremental, safe and effective way.
Precision to me is the accuracy required by your kinesthetic road reflector drills. It's smaller than 6", because that would be the level required to achieve the appropriate feedback of determining how and where the shoulder/sidewall joint is to the edge of the road/curbing, generally the pavement/curbing seam. Anything more than a Kennedy half-dollar area is not precise enough.
How you practice effectively is to reduce the task to a single parameter, then practice until you achieve at least a modicum of consistency and then move to the next parameter. By breaking things down, not only is it easier to summon the required concentration, it's also easier to measure the efficacy of the outcome, like are you REALLY hitting 180 reflectors in a row?
Great thread. The key is to break it down into the smallest parts, achieve competency in executing those parts and then putting all the parts together, IME.
I think that's one of the great benefits of a good coach, to work together to define in clinical detail exactly what your goal is, to devise an equally detailed plan to gauge progress and develop highly targeted exercises to get there, all in an incremental, safe and effective way.
Precision to me is the accuracy required by your kinesthetic road reflector drills. It's smaller than 6", because that would be the level required to achieve the appropriate feedback of determining how and where the shoulder/sidewall joint is to the edge of the road/curbing, generally the pavement/curbing seam. Anything more than a Kennedy half-dollar area is not precise enough.
How you practice effectively is to reduce the task to a single parameter, then practice until you achieve at least a modicum of consistency and then move to the next parameter. By breaking things down, not only is it easier to summon the required concentration, it's also easier to measure the efficacy of the outcome, like are you REALLY hitting 180 reflectors in a row?
Great thread. The key is to break it down into the smallest parts, achieve competency in executing those parts and then putting all the parts together, IME.
Pretty much agree. I think were people miss out is that they need/wait for a coach to do this. Most people are capable of this kind of planning (and do it in their non-motorsport life), but forget when it comes to driving.
I think precision is about what the person wants. For you and I, it's easily in the +/- half dollar range and +/- 1 rollout. Other folks who have different goals might accept a larger sphere of accuracy.
Agree on breaking driving down to specific areas and practicing those. Deliberate practice of small components of driving, tying that into larger groupings up to the a full lap is what it takes. It's interesting that people do so much of this in other sports and not in driving.
04-24-2019, 04:51 PM
#36
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I've found it interesting how lots of people will set out a goal for their driving but then either never define it (what is "be more aggressive?" or "precise"?) and then never have a plan on how to do it.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
04-24-2019, 05:55 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
I've found it interesting how lots of people will set out a goal for their driving but then either never define it (what is "be more aggressive?" or "precise"?) and then never have a plan on how to do it.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
Something like precision. How do you measure it? I always think of it as a sphere of accuracy i.e. a 6" circle around the apex (or other point) that you have to hit. For some folks, they work 6" accuracy, others it's 1 ft, a new driver might be 6 ft! Then how do you practice it? Precision I really like as it's easy on the road. The reflectors they use on the lines after paving are a great way to get a kinesthetic feedback of exactly where the tire is. My record is something like 180 in a row.
That way that I plan to measure it is relatively simple though may be incorrect;
- reduce the transition time between throttle and brake. I tend to coast too much.
- shape of the brake trace appropriate of corner. This is a bit subjective but I have some go bys to measure against
- no see saw of throttle. Once I go to throttle not to give any of it back.
- version above which is patience in turn in and on throttle application. I will apply no throttle before it's time.
Is that correct use of term precision? I am not sure but it's how I am using with respect to my driving.
04-24-2019, 07:06 PM
#38
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Precision is one of my goals.
That way that I plan to measure it is relatively simple though may be incorrect;
- reduce the transition time between throttle and brake. I tend to coast too much.
- shape of the brake trace appropriate of corner. This is a bit subjective but I have some go bys to measure against
- no see saw of throttle. Once I go to throttle not to give any of it back.
- version above which is patience in turn in and on throttle application. I will apply no throttle before it's time.
Is that correct use of term precision? I am not sure but it's how I am using with respect to my driving.
That way that I plan to measure it is relatively simple though may be incorrect;
- reduce the transition time between throttle and brake. I tend to coast too much.
- shape of the brake trace appropriate of corner. This is a bit subjective but I have some go bys to measure against
- no see saw of throttle. Once I go to throttle not to give any of it back.
- version above which is patience in turn in and on throttle application. I will apply no throttle before it's time.
Is that correct use of term precision? I am not sure but it's how I am using with respect to my driving.
Precision refers to car placement and geometry, the connection and combining of corners, the positioning laterally across the track width to a few inches for every longitudinal foot traveled over the lap, the path of the car being so precise that the same coordinates are plotted by the car's position all the way around the track, lap after lap after lap. The car leaves the edge of the road at a precise point, touches the inside curb within inches for the the same length and at the same heading, tracking out fully to the same, 50-cent piece size point on or over the exit curb at the same length every lap.
Now, precise execution of fundamental skills is indeed a worthy goal, and I think that is exactly what you aspire to in your post. But your goals are to execute well a) the transitions, b) the proper and data supported template for an ideal brake trace (which is known but FEW do it well), c) speed and linearity of progression to WOT and d) bumping closer together the end of braking and the transition to that throttle progression to WOT.
Good job!
04-24-2019, 07:08 PM
#39
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Not in my mind or experience.
Precision refers to car placement and geometry, the connection and combining of corners, the positioning laterally across the track width to a few inches for every longitudinal foot traveled over the lap, the path of the car being so precise that the same coordinates are plotted by the car's position all the way around the track, lap after lap after lap. The car leaves the edge of the road at a precise point, touches the inside curb within inches for the the same length and at the same heading, tracking out fully to the same, 50-cent piece size point on or over the exit curb at the same length every lap.
Now, precise execution of fundamental skills is indeed a worthy goal, and I think that is exactly what you aspire to in your post. But your goals are to execute well a) the transitions, b) the proper and data supported template for an ideal brake trace (which is known but FEW do it well), c) speed and linearity of progression to WOT and d) bumping closer together the end of braking and the transition to that throttle progression to WOT.
Good job!
Precision refers to car placement and geometry, the connection and combining of corners, the positioning laterally across the track width to a few inches for every longitudinal foot traveled over the lap, the path of the car being so precise that the same coordinates are plotted by the car's position all the way around the track, lap after lap after lap. The car leaves the edge of the road at a precise point, touches the inside curb within inches for the the same length and at the same heading, tracking out fully to the same, 50-cent piece size point on or over the exit curb at the same length every lap.
Now, precise execution of fundamental skills is indeed a worthy goal, and I think that is exactly what you aspire to in your post. But your goals are to execute well a) the transitions, b) the proper and data supported template for an ideal brake trace (which is known but FEW do it well), c) speed and linearity of progression to WOT and d) bumping closer together the end of braking and the transition to that throttle progression to WOT.
Good job!
04-24-2019, 07:13 PM
#40
Ok, I'll get a bit of my geek on here. Precision and accuracy are not the same thing. Precision is a measure of repeatability, accuracy is a measure of how true the measured value is to some standard.
For example, lets say I have a perfect 10 mm square cube and a digital caliper that reads down to 0.01mm. Ideally, when I measure the cube with the caliper it would read 10.00. Do the measurement over and over again and the difference in the readings from 10.00 mm indicates the precision. The closeness of the readings to 10.00 mm indicates the accuracy. To make things clearer, lets say the user also has a perfect 2mm square cube, and uses this cube to zero the caliper. Now when the caliper is closed, it should read -2.00 mm. On our previous 10mm square cube, it would read 8.00 mm. Do that measurement over and over again and the difference in the reading should be no different than before. However, this time the mean value of those readings will be 8.00 mm instead of 10.0mm - that is an indication of the accuracy error induced by intentionally calibrating the caliper at 2 mm instead of 0 mm. Of course, this is a canned example, the real world is a bit more difficult.
Applying this here, "precision" is a measure of how closely the driver can repeat a lap - literally drive the car exactly the same every lap. A driver being "precise" will have data traces that effectively overlap exactly lap after lap after lap. A driver could technically be driving very poorly, but if he does exactly the same thing every lap, he is very precise. This isn't a perfect analogy, as other things are going on such as fuel burn, temperature, and tire wear, but should certainly be observable over a handful of laps a the least. "Accuracy" is bit more difficult to pin down as it gets to where is the ideal place for the car to be at all times. "Where" here includes the dynamics of the car as well.
The classic lesson is one cannot really achieve accuracy in driving without achieving precision. Precision so you can place the car in the same spot every time, so, with data, you can evaluate the goodness of that spot (accuracy) and how well some other spot works. I.e. do it this way several times, do it that way several times, what's the difference? You don't want that difference swamped out by not being precise enough. Arguably, the "most accurate" is the fastest way around the race track.
-Mike
For example, lets say I have a perfect 10 mm square cube and a digital caliper that reads down to 0.01mm. Ideally, when I measure the cube with the caliper it would read 10.00. Do the measurement over and over again and the difference in the readings from 10.00 mm indicates the precision. The closeness of the readings to 10.00 mm indicates the accuracy. To make things clearer, lets say the user also has a perfect 2mm square cube, and uses this cube to zero the caliper. Now when the caliper is closed, it should read -2.00 mm. On our previous 10mm square cube, it would read 8.00 mm. Do that measurement over and over again and the difference in the reading should be no different than before. However, this time the mean value of those readings will be 8.00 mm instead of 10.0mm - that is an indication of the accuracy error induced by intentionally calibrating the caliper at 2 mm instead of 0 mm. Of course, this is a canned example, the real world is a bit more difficult.
Applying this here, "precision" is a measure of how closely the driver can repeat a lap - literally drive the car exactly the same every lap. A driver being "precise" will have data traces that effectively overlap exactly lap after lap after lap. A driver could technically be driving very poorly, but if he does exactly the same thing every lap, he is very precise. This isn't a perfect analogy, as other things are going on such as fuel burn, temperature, and tire wear, but should certainly be observable over a handful of laps a the least. "Accuracy" is bit more difficult to pin down as it gets to where is the ideal place for the car to be at all times. "Where" here includes the dynamics of the car as well.
The classic lesson is one cannot really achieve accuracy in driving without achieving precision. Precision so you can place the car in the same spot every time, so, with data, you can evaluate the goodness of that spot (accuracy) and how well some other spot works. I.e. do it this way several times, do it that way several times, what's the difference? You don't want that difference swamped out by not being precise enough. Arguably, the "most accurate" is the fastest way around the race track.
-Mike
04-24-2019, 09:29 PM
#41
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Love it! This discussion is a perfect example why the detail of what we want to achieve is so important. While the terms and vocab might change from person to person, with thorough description it becomes clear and easier to accomplish. With that detail, you can make exercises and metrics to see how you are doing.
Great discussion!
Great discussion!
04-26-2019, 08:05 AM
#43
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Go fast(er) and don’t crash! Seriously, trying to focus on end of brake zone and brake release technique, even on the street! It’s reprogramming what we have always done on the street! Also, with a momentum car now, I want to “learn” to carry more speed into the turn in because I sure as hell can’t power out of it like I once
did in the 911 X51! But the manual Cay S is so much more fun. So, I’m going to have even more FUN! Now that’s a goal!
did in the 911 X51! But the manual Cay S is so much more fun. So, I’m going to have even more FUN! Now that’s a goal!
04-26-2019, 08:43 AM
#44
Instructor
I am relatively new to this. So I will be working on basics. Specific areas to improve include, keeping my eyes up, getting comfortable with trail braking, building consistency in the execution of each lap and learning 3 new tracks.
I've scheduled 34 days on track this year, almost all with instruction. In addition to time on the track, I am also reading everything I can, listening to podcasts, and spending hours upon hours chair driving (visualization).
And I'm looking forward to advice and guidance from the Rennlist community.
I've scheduled 34 days on track this year, almost all with instruction. In addition to time on the track, I am also reading everything I can, listening to podcasts, and spending hours upon hours chair driving (visualization).
And I'm looking forward to advice and guidance from the Rennlist community.
04-26-2019, 08:51 AM
#45
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Headed up to VIR for another day of helping a variety of pro drivers do just that...