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sim: static vs motion for driver training

 
Old 02-06-2019, 01:21 PM
  #16  
JarheadGT3
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Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.

I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.

Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:28 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by JarheadGT3 View Post
Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.

I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.

Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
Bingo. To me, in bold is the number one benefit for IRL (in real life) drivers to use a sim.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:13 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by JarheadGT3 View Post
Definitely in ProCoach's corner on this one...ultimately it will depend on personal preference, as well as what you're looking to get from your sim time. I spend a considerable amount of time on the sim between events, and during the off season - maybe 8-10 hours a week - and have found (for me) that pedals, screen resolution/frame rate, and wheel are the best investment areas. I've tried the high-end motion sims, and for me, it seemed much more of a novelty than a training tool - especially when considering the increase in cost. Let's assume $5k for a decent home rig (if you don't go too crazy) versus $50k for a motion rig - the increase in training value is absolutely not tenfold. That said, if folks have the money to spend, and like the motion, nothing wrong with that.

I use the sim for three things: (1) baking visual imagery and closing/rolling speed into the subconscious, (2) technique refinement, and (3) conditioning hand speed/rhythm into muscle memory. I'll never replicate G loads in a sim, so I maximize what's available. On #1, I over-invested in graphics horsepower - 2x high end video cards daisy chained to run triple 2k monitors at 205fps (with proper geometry/scale relative to the eyes). This gives my eyeballs maximum realism for sensing speed, attitude of the car, and identifying artifacts on the track, horizon, etc. By isolating vision as a primary sensor (without the G loads), I've been able to train my eyes to be a bigger player in the sense-what-the-car-is-doing game in real life. It's like doing preacher curls to isolate the biceps, which then give you more overall strength in doing pull-ups. On #2 I need good, firm pedals that really require some leg to whoa the car the down, but sensitive enough to let me modulate the brake...otherwise it's too much like an arcade game with no real technique benefit. This allows me to work on trailbraking, timing of release, etc. And lastly on #3, I need a quality wheel that allows me to feel what the tires are doing, where there's grip/where there's not, where there's bumps, what the different types of gators do to grip, and so on. I've even gone a step further here and actually added a 991 Cup steering wheel onto my base so I'm dealing with exact dimensions of what I drive in real life.

Some of that may sound like overkill, but it works for me, and I didn't have to spend $50k to get there!
Do you have any specific recommendations for the wheel/drive and pedals? Sounds like the quality of the feedback you get from the static components is critical.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:20 AM
  #19  
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I think the note from JarheadGT3 regarding high-horsepower graphics is super important, too. IRacing and other current gen sims scale up the level of detail according to hardware tests built in to the sim. The more GPU power, the more detail is drawn. Also, less latency (faster “drawing”) of the detail helps the mind accept it as more realistic. It all is dependent on that as well as tactile feedback from the wheel and pedals.

To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!

JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:50 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by fcap View Post
Do you have any specific recommendations for the wheel/drive and pedals? Sounds like the quality of the feedback you get from the static components is critical.
pedals: https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim...v=7516fd43adaa
wheel :https://www.simracingbay.com/

i had triples then went VR, ran VR for months but went back to triples. As much as i love the VR if you set up your triples correctly i think its just as good if not better than VR.

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Old 02-07-2019, 02:38 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by fcap View Post
Do you have any specific recommendations for the wheel/drive and pedals? Sounds like the quality of the feedback you get from the static components is critical.
I may get flamed for this, because it's not the Gucci high end stuff, but I have really enjoyed the Fanatec line. I'm very curious to see how their Direct Drive base is received, though, as I've resisted the DD upgrade to date. I drove a DD wheel down at Simcraft and I'm not sure if it was just calibrated poorly or what, but it felt very numb compared to what I'm using at home. In any event, this is what I'm using:

Fanatec Clubsport V2.5 base: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/wheel-...base-v2-5.html
[It is a belt-driven wheel, and while I suspect that at my pace of use it will fail at some point, after more than a year and a half at 8-10 hours per week it's still going strong.]

Fanatec Clubsport GT Forza Motorsport wheel: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/steeri...sport-usa.html
[I like the Xbox-flavored hub because it allows me to program buttons for radio, brake bias adjustment, etc. If you have your own actual steering wheel to use, you can get the hub by itself for $100 cheaper.]

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals V3: https://www.fanatec.com/us-en/pedals...ls-v3-usa.html
[There are better pedals out there for sure, but for consumer grade, I really like these - I can dial up the firmness, along with some other bells/whistles, to get a pretty good feeling out of the brake pedal. Unfortunately for me, the inverted version of these weren't available for order when I bought my pedals, but have been looking to switch over to the inverted to get my foot geometry a little closer to what it's like in real life.]
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:57 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by ProCoach View Post
I think the note from JarheadGT3 regarding high-horsepower graphics is super important, too. IRacing and other current gen sims scale up the level of detail according to hardware tests built in to the sim. The more GPU power, the more detail is drawn. Also, less latency (faster “drawing”) of the detail helps the mind accept it as more realistic. It all is dependent on that as well as tactile feedback from the wheel and pedals.

To me, the brake pedal stiffness and action is key, followed by a properly calibrated wheel. Having had satisfactory experience with belt drive or even geared drive wheels, the DD wheel is a diminished return, for me. But those pedals are key!

JarheadGT3, are you still running that Perfect Pedal hydraulic load cell or something else?
No I'm still on the Fanatec V2.5. After a year or so I think I've got them set up pretty well - RB came over and drove some this winter and said my whole setup felt like an actual car compared to what he's got at home, so that made me feel like I got close to the right mark. I think when it comes time to swap out the wheel base, I may take a swing at some of the higher end pedal setups we discussed.

On graphics - that's definitely where I spent the lion's share of money/attention. I've got two GeForce GTX 1080 Ti's on the GPU side, and a 10-core processor, all pushing pixels to three Dell XPS S2716DG QHD 27" monitors (with GSync to maximize the dual 1080's). The level of detail and refresh rate is just bananas. The key from there is just to make sure your monitors are spaced appropriately to give your eyes the proper scale. This is where I see people go wrong with these giant monitors and whatnot. For example, from my eyes' perspective, the size of the steering wheel on screen is exactly the same size as the wheel in my hand. To me, it makes a mountain of difference when training your eyes for the apexes, track-out, etc.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:35 PM
  #23  
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I have heard great things about fanatec as well. Curious as to how some of you have the vibrating speakers set up, may be my next add.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:04 AM
  #24  
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Fanatec offers great value, for sure.
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Old 02-09-2019, 09:34 PM
  #25  
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Really interesting thread! Are there companies that sell a complete package? I don't know that much about computers, graphics cards, etc. and would be interested in exploring purchasing a racing simulator but don't have the interest in researching all of the parts to build one. Would be great to be able to buy a "package."
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:00 PM
  #26  
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Any suggestions on where to buy a complete quality static setup? I am beginner in the sim world but believe it would help a lot.

Thanks
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:09 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by greyman09 View Post
Any suggestions on where to buy a complete quality static setup? I am beginner in the sim world but believe it would help a lot.

Thanks
No shortage of places, but I prefer to work with folks that have been around for awhile and will be around for awhile, that this is their company and full time job.

Many of these companies sell $20K-$80K full motion rigs (SimCraft, CXC, the folks in Ohio), but for dead nuts simple, a few of my Cup clients have had good experience with Sim Seats in Richmond, Virginia.

I have no commercial connection with them at all, but they've been around and I hear no complaints from their customers. And that's tough to do with something as potentially support-intensive as a sim, even one that is static.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:30 PM
  #28  
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Motion is a waste of money in my opinion for a few reasons. You dont need to go crazy when building a setup and anyone can have a badass sim setup for under 5K if they do it right.
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.

VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.

But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:08 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SkeerRacing View Post
Motion is a waste of money in my opinion for a few reasons. You dont need to go crazy when building a setup and anyone can have a badass sim setup for under 5K if they do it right.
Reasons to not go the motion route. If just the seats moves and it's realistic to your real car, you need to bolt your real seat down lol
Yeah bumps are fun, but how many times do you remember bumps actually effecting you in the seat, sims cant replicate proper G's yet, so dont think getting thrown around will replace that.

VR is the absolute game changer in sims and should be the priority over everything (except a good brake pedal). In VR you can judge distance naturally, a brake zone at 300m actually feels like 300m!
Spend money on a badass brake pedal, it will transform how the car feels and behaves, a Fanatec brake will work, but I'd highly recommend Heusinkveld Pro pedals.

But at the end of the day, the physical rig doesnt matter as much as the motive going into each session. Treat the sim seriously and see serious results, treat it like a game and it will only be that!
Word.

Good to see Elliot Skeer here! Not only is Elliott a fine driver, but also a trailblazer in effective remote sim coaching.

Why practice the wrong things when you can have Elliott help you practice the right way around a particular circuit?

Also, go through a set up sweep in a session and SEE/FEEL the difference in the way the car behaves, and talk through these changes with Elliott or another experienced remote sim coach. Hit the track at speed, instead of spending all weekend getting there.

All kinds of good things can happen using resources readily available...
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:31 PM
  #30  
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Concur w/ everyone here that motion is basically a waste. I have a D-Box/RSeat motion sim at home and it's mostly a gimmick for my friends when they come over (especially after they've been drinking). When combined with an Oculus Rift it's pretty cool, but still nothing like real life. I've switched to a standard single monitor (from the triple display or VR headset) because I've been planning to stream a lot more sessions and it's easier for that.

Personally, I mainly use it to learn new tracks or to do a short session at a track I haven't been to in awhile before revisiting it -- I find it invaluable for that. I've shown up at new tracks and in just 3-4 laps I'm up to race pace... it's almost unbelievable. As much time as I've spent on it, I don't feel that it really helps me on the technique of driving (maybe I'm doing it wrong or my wheel/pedals aren't realistic enough)... but it is useful to keep good habits (always looking ahead, etc). A month or 2 ago I rigged up an eye tracker to it and goofed around for a few laps.. it was pretty interesting. I'd like to spend some more time with it, but have just been too busy.


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