Bad habits and warnings from sim racing?
01-25-2019, 10:54 PM
#16
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LOL! "word salad" That's great.
OK... teaching your eyes? I thought I was training my a$$? In the words of the great Bruce Lee, "don't look ...F-E-E-L..." What are the eyes seeing an imaginary car centerline and an imaginary trajectory on the tarmac and interpreting a slip angle? Your word salad went right over my head.
OK... teaching your eyes? I thought I was training my a$$? In the words of the great Bruce Lee, "don't look ...F-E-E-L..." What are the eyes seeing an imaginary car centerline and an imaginary trajectory on the tarmac and interpreting a slip angle? Your word salad went right over my head.
01-26-2019, 12:57 PM
#18
Instructor
Coach, you described EXACTLY what I'm working hardest on right now. I've tried to explain it and the best thing that I can come up with is the experience and feeling of sailing when you have the boat heeled over and you find that PERFECT pull of the sails. A little left and you lose it. A little right and you lose it. But if you get right in that perfect spot it's a magical feeling.
I get that same feeling when I have just the right amount of rotation in the car into and out of a corner. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough and I'm desperately trying to make it second nature. Frustratingly fun though!
I get that same feeling when I have just the right amount of rotation in the car into and out of a corner. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough and I'm desperately trying to make it second nature. Frustratingly fun though!
01-26-2019, 02:45 PM
#19
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I find these two very difficult to master on my racing sim, which is Forza 7, XboxOneX, with Logitech G920 wheel. I wonder how many bad habits I’m building with this “sim.”
01-26-2019, 03:08 PM
#20
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They’re doubly hard to master, in real life!
It’s super hard to “shave thinner the increments” with some sim modeling and some sim hardware, but it can be done. I like the consoles, not quite as much as PC sims, but some are really good. And you CAN do this with a G920...
Practice on cars with less stick, where stuff happens more slowly. Or, try really good cars.
Twenty-two years ago, eight years before he won his first pro title, factory Mazda Prototype Driver Tom Long was an apprentice at my race preparation shop.
We were at Mid-Ohio in a crappy hotel in Bellville and I had brought along my BRAND NEW Sony PlayStation and a new “game” called Gran Turismo.
We were using conventional corded controllers and I had had a lot of time to practice the week before. He lost the first race and kicked my *** every subsequent one!
On crappy hardware!
Four years later, I was the SCCA CI for his first racing school and four years after that, he won the first Mazda MX-5 Cup Pro Series. Pretty cool.
Keep working on it. Focus on high horsepower cars with less aids coming OFF the corner, FIRST. Then after you keep a squirmy rear tire under you, then work on corner entry.
It’s super hard to “shave thinner the increments” with some sim modeling and some sim hardware, but it can be done. I like the consoles, not quite as much as PC sims, but some are really good. And you CAN do this with a G920...
Practice on cars with less stick, where stuff happens more slowly. Or, try really good cars.
Twenty-two years ago, eight years before he won his first pro title, factory Mazda Prototype Driver Tom Long was an apprentice at my race preparation shop.
We were at Mid-Ohio in a crappy hotel in Bellville and I had brought along my BRAND NEW Sony PlayStation and a new “game” called Gran Turismo.
We were using conventional corded controllers and I had had a lot of time to practice the week before. He lost the first race and kicked my *** every subsequent one!
On crappy hardware!Four years later, I was the SCCA CI for his first racing school and four years after that, he won the first Mazda MX-5 Cup Pro Series. Pretty cool.
Keep working on it. Focus on high horsepower cars with less aids coming OFF the corner, FIRST. Then after you keep a squirmy rear tire under you, then work on corner entry.
02-08-2019, 11:29 AM
#21
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So, one of the most common issues in real-life is either under-estimating (generally, fixing too quickly the desired rotation) or over-estimating ("I got it, I got it, I got it... I don't got it. 
) the amount of acceptable yaw generation (going in and coming out) and maintaining desired slip angle (going through and out).
As in so many things about driving, people jumble together many "calls and responses" that they make to the car, without regard to the fact that there are several items in play, not the least of which is rate and amplitude of control inputs, steering, braking and acceleration. We are seeking the optimum relationship between all three, at ALL times...
There are TWO main issues centered around developing these skills where working on the sim can be helpful, especially when looking at replays and at the data generated by the driver in the sim afterwards.
Those two issues are often the crux of drivers making "breakthroughs" in real-life and are essential components in a pro driver's tool box.
The first is being able to discern the differences in the rate of yaw building (slip more at one end, almost always the rear) between "good" and "not good." If it builds in a manageable way, and under the direction of the driver, it's generally good. If it builds too suddenly, and is an unplanned reaction to a driver input, that's not good. This generally occurs at EoB, at or after turn in but before the apex and transition to the second issue.
The second is at, around or coming off the apex, where pro-active throttle (by the planned and executed strategy of the driver) begins and sustains a yaw angle that "balances" the car, particularly in relation between steering (goal is to lessen lock) and throttle (slightly overpowering the rear wheels, say in a Cup car). Practicing on the sim coming through and off Turn 1 at VIR is a GREAT place to do this.
Bottom line is that you can teach your eyes to quantify the rate of yaw build and incrementally allow that slip to be sustained. If you train your eyes to do this, it becomes automatic in real-life and disaster can be averted. At least that's my experience.
This is probably sounding like a word salad, I'll give some more thought over Sebring week and follow up if I can think of how to make it clearer.
) the amount of acceptable yaw generation (going in and coming out) and maintaining desired slip angle (going through and out).As in so many things about driving, people jumble together many "calls and responses" that they make to the car, without regard to the fact that there are several items in play, not the least of which is rate and amplitude of control inputs, steering, braking and acceleration. We are seeking the optimum relationship between all three, at ALL times...
There are TWO main issues centered around developing these skills where working on the sim can be helpful, especially when looking at replays and at the data generated by the driver in the sim afterwards.
Those two issues are often the crux of drivers making "breakthroughs" in real-life and are essential components in a pro driver's tool box.
The first is being able to discern the differences in the rate of yaw building (slip more at one end, almost always the rear) between "good" and "not good." If it builds in a manageable way, and under the direction of the driver, it's generally good. If it builds too suddenly, and is an unplanned reaction to a driver input, that's not good. This generally occurs at EoB, at or after turn in but before the apex and transition to the second issue.
The second is at, around or coming off the apex, where pro-active throttle (by the planned and executed strategy of the driver) begins and sustains a yaw angle that "balances" the car, particularly in relation between steering (goal is to lessen lock) and throttle (slightly overpowering the rear wheels, say in a Cup car). Practicing on the sim coming through and off Turn 1 at VIR is a GREAT place to do this.
Bottom line is that you can teach your eyes to quantify the rate of yaw build and incrementally allow that slip to be sustained. If you train your eyes to do this, it becomes automatic in real-life and disaster can be averted. At least that's my experience.
This is probably sounding like a word salad, I'll give some more thought over Sebring week and follow up if I can think of how to make it clearer.
02-08-2019, 12:00 PM
#22
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Nope, Sebring just reinforced how hard it is to
do both things well, particularly the second “build yaw at apex and beyond with proactive throttle” listed above, in real life and without damage. Especially in a 991.1 Cup.
do both things well, particularly the second “build yaw at apex and beyond with proactive throttle” listed above, in real life and without damage. Especially in a 991.1 Cup.
02-08-2019, 12:25 PM
#24
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Hahaha! Well, you're right, if the surface is flat and smooth...
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02-08-2019, 12:50 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Great thread. I've recently started playing with a simulator (Occulus and Logitech wheel/pedals). Mostly Project Cars 2. I find Pro Coach's comments particularly interesting. Rather than approach more as a game, going forward I'll really focus on line, continued improvement, braking zones etc.
I recently got a cockpit, and added a buttkicker. My current complaint is I feel the Logitech pedals are the weak point in the setup in terms of feel. Thinking about moving to a Fanatec setup on pedals, and then over time a Fanatec wheel (maybe the direct drive when that is sorted out).
Only negative is the simulator is a big time suck. I sit down and then realize two hours has gone by.... Guess that could be a good thing.
I recently got a cockpit, and added a buttkicker. My current complaint is I feel the Logitech pedals are the weak point in the setup in terms of feel. Thinking about moving to a Fanatec setup on pedals, and then over time a Fanatec wheel (maybe the direct drive when that is sorted out).
Only negative is the simulator is a big time suck. I sit down and then realize two hours has gone by.... Guess that could be a good thing.
02-08-2019, 10:55 PM
#26
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Great thread. I find Pro Coach's comments particularly interesting. Rather than approach more as a game, going forward I'll really focus on line, continued improvement, braking zones etc.
Only negative is the simulator is a big time suck. I sit down and then realize two hours has gone by.... Guess that could be a good thing.
Only negative is the simulator is a big time suck. I sit down and then realize two hours has gone by.... Guess that could be a good thing.
02-08-2019, 11:02 PM
#27
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Coach, you described EXACTLY what I'm working hardest on right now.
I've tried to explain it and the best thing that I can come up with is the experience and feeling of sailing when you have the boat heeled over and you find that PERFECT pull of the sails. A little left and you lose it. A little right and you lose it. But if you get right in that perfect spot it's a magical feeling.
Frustratingly fun though!
I've tried to explain it and the best thing that I can come up with is the experience and feeling of sailing when you have the boat heeled over and you find that PERFECT pull of the sails. A little left and you lose it. A little right and you lose it. But if you get right in that perfect spot it's a magical feeling.
Frustratingly fun though!
02-16-2019, 08:42 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
I have been sim racing since 2009 or so, started on a laptop with rfactor when i was racing karts. I can def say it has helped me advance and keep my skills up. I was out of my SRF for 6-7 months, jumped back in and was back up running and won a race.
What i take from sim racing is this:
- mental training, staying focused for 20,30,40 minutes at a time hitting your marks and being consistent
- foot work, proper squeezing of the pedals, downshifting, releasing both pedals
- i know this may sound crazy but i also feel from sim racing i could catch my real car making moves much quicker by front end movement.
dont go out and drive crazy on the sim, most people treat it as a game. If you go out, do your out lap as you would, warm yourself up, cool yourself down, it will help you with your game plan when in the real car.
What i take from sim racing is this:
- mental training, staying focused for 20,30,40 minutes at a time hitting your marks and being consistent
- foot work, proper squeezing of the pedals, downshifting, releasing both pedals
- i know this may sound crazy but i also feel from sim racing i could catch my real car making moves much quicker by front end movement.
dont go out and drive crazy on the sim, most people treat it as a game. If you go out, do your out lap as you would, warm yourself up, cool yourself down, it will help you with your game plan when in the real car.