Been reading the posts on driver safety and have been contemplating upgrading my seats. I will only be doing a few DEs per year, therefore I would like to stick with the comfort of the stock seat and still be able to use my harness at the track. The GT3 seat with harness guides is nice, but too much money and I'm not sure it would fit in my 87 anyway. I love the sport seats and was wondering if I had them modified to include harness guides if they would be considered acceptable.

The cross brace on my roll bar prevents the seats from reclining, so it acts like a nice seat back brace. In my completely uneducated logic, that would mean to me that the seat breaking and me falling backwards and out the harness would not be an issue (insert comment about my niavete here).

Sooooo.... webersport in CA is willing to get me sport seats, re-apholster them with leather trim and suede inserts and include harness and sub guides. My question is will this be acceptable to PCA instructors? I love the stock look, comfort and ease of install. Wanna be safe though, so let me know. Sorry for the small pic.

 

Check your local rules. It would be acceptable out here for DE/Time Trials with PCA (and NCRC, TracQuest and others).

 

Kirk,

From our region that would be an acceptable solution, and I've seen others do that too (saw a 996 with shoulder guides added, cost around $150 as I recall). Another option that some use are Recaro SRD's, which, assuming they fit you, can be quite comfortable, are cloth, come with shoulder guides and a sub strap slot, fit sliders easily, adjust back angle, come in a choice of colors, and a no charge choice of logo color. I've used them for years, as they fit me well.

 

Kirk,

Despite the potential for the harnesses to slide off of the shoulders in a crash, I've seen stock seats without harness guides (slot was cut into bottom cushion for subs) be used at DE's without any issues from the PCA officials. Maybe the regions were relaxed.

I'm surmising that your solution would be fine but check with your region.

 

Well...

I guess I would qualify as his region! Hey Kirk. Your solution is reasonable if you want to go that route. Frankly, race seats are a pain in the a$$. Oh, it's not the seats really, it's mounting them. There are no real good options for sliding tracks that bolt right up. I always have to fab stuff up and it gets expensive.

I've got a 996 in the shop right now. It's got some sort of Sparco articulated seat on sliding tracks. What a joke. The sliders move a whole 4 inches! The seat is narrow and uncomfortable, and yet is too wide for the space and the sides hit the carpet. I thought the 996 was supposed to be roomier?!?!?!

What is happening here is that there is some evidence that belts will slide off the shoulders with a stock seat. Some groups are getting fussy about this, CVR/PCA for one. Others are prefering not to tell people what they have to do and therefore accept liability as I see it. I think there is merit in both arguments.

Bottom line is that PCA is getting fussier in general. I think it is insurance driven, for without that coverage, we don't get to have fun! If the question is would you please get more safety equipment so you can have fun, then my answer is get whatever you need to in order to get your fix!!

 

I believe Mark in Baltimore would be referring to me. I have a sub belt slot cut in my stock seats and the shoulder harnesses through the guides i the guide bar and then just draped over the shoulders. I will add better seats when the funding allows. As for the safety of my setup, the twin shoulder harnesses are still a heck of a lot less likely to let go of my two shoulders than the three point harness (totally acceptable for DEs) is of letting go of one shoulder.

 

Tennessee Tuxedo, I was, in fact referring to you. Are you staying at the Inn on the Lakes at Sebring? Can't remember. Also, when are you getting there? I'll be arriving on Wednesday PM.

 

Kirk:
Your solution would be acceptable with NNJR PCA as well. I am assuming that the seat pass-through holes are of the same build and quality as the dedicated race seat pass-throughs. We even accept using the stock seats with the harnesses over the sides (as long as a harness guide bar of some sort is used), As previously discussed, this setup is a debatable safety issue. (Which we should save for another thread! )

Can you elaborate on this please?

BTW, I am currently considering the Corbeau Legend seat as my next upgrade:


Thanks,
-Zoltan, NNJR Track tech co-chair.

 

If you can get someone to cut the slots for a reasonable price and do a good job, that's the best bet for DE. I have the Corbeau CR1's, and these work very well, although they don't have a sub-strap slot. Don't get me started on harness bars......

 

Hey All;

At Last November's PCA Zone 1 Presidents Meeting, there was a concurrent DE symposium where all the track chairs got together to discuss issues like safety, the new national instructor certification program, etc.

Specifically regarding the harness-with-stock-seat issue, someone offered that there had been testing done for this "perceived problem." In a frontal sled test, as the belts stretched and the driver moved forward, the tapered shape of most seats could slip the belts off the driver's shoulders. BIFF.

I think this is somewhat a factor of driver height as well. Shorter drivers would tend to suffer from this more than tall because their belts would be farther down the tapered seat sides to start with. In any event, the theory that lack of anything to physically keep the belts from spreading apart does seem to have some merit.

Many people immediately mention "H" strap belts, but for our multi-occupant uses (DE), these are not easily/quickly adjustable for varying occupant sizes, and for that reason I reject them. I myself feel that a sternum strap would automatically solve this problem. Many automatically reject that idea because of a perceived "guillotine effect", but this is YET AGAIN a missapplication of formula-car-laid-back-driving-position thinking. For sedan useage, our highly upright seating position would reduce this liklihood to almost nil, it seems to me.

 

John:
Thanks for the info.

Regarding the sternum strap: many people feel uncomfortable with yet another latch that may need to be unclasped in order to get a driver out of a car. I don't know if it's that much of a concern or not.

Also: the G-Force H-Strap isn't attached directly to the harnesses: it has two loops on either side. (Picture a figure '8' with a line between the top 'o' and bottom 'o') The shoulder harnesses go through these loops and thus, the H-strap can move forward and back to adjust. I do not know if this is better or worse than a permanently affixed H-strap.

As always, YMMV,
-Z-man.

 

Better by far, Z;

With a floating cross strap, it is placed ahead of the head rest and right next to the driver. This is an excellent solution that I have thought about for years. I guess I just never wanted to get in the seat belt business!!

 

Sorry to bring an old thread back up, but I am curious about this too as my intended use for my car is similar to Kirk (about 4 DEs a year) and I love my sport seats. What do you guys think about using a factory belt along with a four point harness? Four points to hold you in place and the factory belt as a backup to prevent the risk of slipping through the shoulder harnesses?

BTW, I do like the idea of an H strap with a sternum strap.

 

Personally;

I think that any instructor that would refuse to get in a car right off the bat because of harnesses and stock seats is just being overly dramatic. I have never had a student that I felt uncomfortable with, nor have I ever had trouble keeping a student reigned in. Most of the time the speeds are so low that I feel very little trepidation at all, and I DO INDEED have a strong natural instinct for self preservation.

I think the holes in the stock seats is acceptable, as this retains the belts in close proximity to the driver. The only difference is that a racing seat will retain you better because of increased bolstering and decreased padding.

Wearing both belts is also a reasonable compromise in my view. If stock is acceptable, and is supposedly better at keeping the driver in, then where is the problem wearing both?

Both H and sternum would seem to be overkill, but I suppose wouldn't hurt.

 

Just more 2 cents.... the modified sport seat with sub belt cutout looks like the best compromise.... certainly it is way superior to just stock seat....

two pet concerns... first... any two piece seat can break in a hard rear impact.... at least make sure the harness bar is at shoulder height... not neck height.

Secondly, compression of the stock seat pads could conceivably position the lap belts over the abdomen... not good....

But both of these are theories....

Also, have a problem with mixing belt types.... maybe they have both been demonstrated effective... but together?... just another unanswered safety question