To Shuffle (steer) or not to shuffle
11-10-2018, 04:25 PM
#31
11-10-2018, 05:16 PM
#32
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,681
Received 2,837 Likes
on
1,671 Posts
cre8fun, read your original post again and most important takeaway for me was that you “weren’t even aware of it” until this person pointed it out.
To me, that means it wasn’t getting in the way of what you wanted the car to do. If something gets in your way, ergonomically and throughout the range of all of your control inputs, then by all means change until it doesn’t, but until it does, leave well enough alone.
This idea that what works for some will work for all is not correct, and the more I’ve done this, the less rigid I have become in my teaching approach. My .02
11-10-2018, 06:11 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
+1 on what Peter said.
Very well stated!
Very well stated!
11-10-2018, 06:28 PM
#34
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I like to keep them at 9-3 whenever possible but on some tracks with very tight, slow hairpins, unless you’re in some sort of formula car with half a turn lock to lock, you’re going to need to move your hands. It’s dependent upon the type of car and/or circuit you’re driving on.
9-3 is the better way, when possible!
9-3 is the better way, when possible!
11-11-2018, 07:37 AM
#35
Nordschleife Master
OP, it is fine to do it when needed, but I would suggest you are just doing it too much. You are shuffling in the video every single corner. The reason I would suggest not to shuffle steer as much is leverage. When you have more leverage on the wheel, you can turn it even more, even when you shouldn’t. If you look at the video, most corners you are adding steering after initial turn in. This ends up causing driver induced understeer and delaying throttle application. In the video, you are often not on the throttle until well after the apex. You’re going fast, but you could go even faster. It probably feels fast on the way in, but you are definitely losing lap time.
Here a lap also at summit where I only really shuffle steer in one corner. But I still move my right hand a bit more than I should IMO. And I rarely move my left hand at all.
Here a lap also at summit where I only really shuffle steer in one corner. But I still move my right hand a bit more than I should IMO. And I rarely move my left hand at all.
11-11-2018, 11:10 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Agree that OP shuffles a little too much for my liking, but who am I to say its wrong.
This is a video of my instructor / mechanic / friend taking the controls of my little E36 race car for a race earlier this year when I got sick. Some of the best driving I've every seen in person. I guess you could say it's his fault my technique is also not perfect, as I shuffle steer sometimes as well. You can see he's at 9 and 3 the majority of the time, but certainly shuffles some on the tight turns as he barrels his way through the big bore pack (the other E36 he passes is a "big bore" built S54 car) in my small bore E36.
Hand position discussion aside, it's a fun video to watch and, yes, he should've been disqualified for not wearing racing gloves.
This is a video of my instructor / mechanic / friend taking the controls of my little E36 race car for a race earlier this year when I got sick. Some of the best driving I've every seen in person. I guess you could say it's his fault my technique is also not perfect, as I shuffle steer sometimes as well. You can see he's at 9 and 3 the majority of the time, but certainly shuffles some on the tight turns as he barrels his way through the big bore pack (the other E36 he passes is a "big bore" built S54 car) in my small bore E36.
Hand position discussion aside, it's a fun video to watch and, yes, he should've been disqualified for not wearing racing gloves.
Last edited by MaynardZed; 11-12-2018 at 12:08 PM.
11-11-2018, 11:21 AM
#37
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,681
Received 2,837 Likes
on
1,671 Posts
Nice, relaxed grip on the wheel. Driving with his fingertips. Well calibrated ***, too:
11-11-2018, 03:04 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Caster is great for self-centering. Hard to count on that alone though if you've lost control of the car. Personally in such a case I'd prefer to have my hands at known positions on the wheel like 9 and 3 because it gives me a little more confidence in righting the car. Clearly this is a preference, and others' preference may be different.
11-11-2018, 03:33 PM
#39
Instructor
Thread Starter
Bingo.
cre8fun, read your original post again and most important takeaway for me was that you “weren’t even aware of it” until this person pointed it out.
To me, that means it wasn’t getting in the way of what you wanted the car to do. If something gets in your way, ergonomically and throughout the range of all of your control inputs, then by all means change until it doesn’t, but until it does, leave well enough alone.
This idea that what works for some will work for all is not correct, and the more I’ve done this, the less rigid I have become in my teaching approach. My .02
and yes, I think we can consider this topic done.
11-11-2018, 03:39 PM
#40
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,470
Received 3,287 Likes
on
1,589 Posts
11-11-2018, 03:46 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Ew
11-11-2018, 07:26 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
3 pages in, not looking to beat a dead horse. I can get my head around a conscious repositioning in a very tight corner - but other than that, I'm 9-3. There really is no good reason not to be.
Related, I had a student looking for a checkout ride to advanced - gripping the wheel for whatever reason at 11 and 1, King Kong Hard. Not to be dogmatic, but his driving was rough and pretty much mirrored what you'd expect as he pitched (unsettled) the car forcefully into corners.
The hand position is probably secondary - driving with a light touch is key.
Cheers
Matt
Related, I had a student looking for a checkout ride to advanced - gripping the wheel for whatever reason at 11 and 1, King Kong Hard. Not to be dogmatic, but his driving was rough and pretty much mirrored what you'd expect as he pitched (unsettled) the car forcefully into corners.
The hand position is probably secondary - driving with a light touch is key.
Cheers
Matt
11-11-2018, 07:37 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,443
Received 3,798 Likes
on
2,196 Posts
Shuffle steering has been part of the Skip Barber Racing School curricula since 1975. I can quote from the Instructors Racing School Program Guide...
Not saying yea or nay, but there’s no conclusive data indicating it’s faster or not as fast.
Silly argument, if you ask me... most everyone keeps their hands at 9-3, unless there’s a compelling reason not to...
Not saying yea or nay, but there’s no conclusive data indicating it’s faster or not as fast.
Silly argument, if you ask me... most everyone keeps their hands at 9-3, unless there’s a compelling reason not to...
Not really even a discussion worth having, IMO.
Instructors who "fail" people for shuffle steering are just being rigid and should focus on how the car is actually being driven.
I see a variety of grips among the top pros in tennis, apparently there isn't just one "right" way to do it.
11-12-2018, 05:43 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
The time a hand spends in the air and not on the wheel, especially in a turn, is information lost about grip at all four corners and time lost to make quick, precise micro-corrections at the grip limit. This is also one of the reasons PDK is faster than manual on the same car. When driving <9/10 and the car feel like it's "on rails", it doesn't matter if you shuffle or not . When driving 10/10 and the car is straddling the grip limit, it matters that you maximize the time both hands spend on the wheel and only remove (shuffle) them when/if a sharp (slow) turn demands it. OP was not driving at the grip limit so could afford to shuffle as much as he did. Here's Senna in a street car (famous NSX Suzuka video) shuffling only once in a hairpin turn when his arms couldn't physically accommodate the steering angle:
11-12-2018, 04:11 PM
#45
It's all about fundamentals. When you teach a kid to catch a fly ball in baseball, you teach him to use to use both hands. When he gets better/older he may choose to use one hand if his coach allows it. The same with fielding grounders...glove on the ground. These are basic fundamentals in baseball.
There are fundamentals when driving a car on the track too and keeping your hands at 9 and 3 is one of them. Of course a driver can deviate as they gain experience. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a good idea to teach 9 and 3....
There are fundamentals when driving a car on the track too and keeping your hands at 9 and 3 is one of them. Of course a driver can deviate as they gain experience. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a good idea to teach 9 and 3....