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So twice in the past few months, someone has said, you should stop shuffling the wheel. Honestly, it never crossed my mind. maybe it's an old habit. with my steering ratio, I certainly can't run a lot of tracks without some shuffling, but wondering -- Is shuffling really a problem? Does it increase risk or lap times?
I guess I learned shuffling 20+ years ago and I think the logic back then was your hands are at 10 and 2 in the turn so you have equal range of motion right or left should you need to make an adjustment. has that changed?
Here's video from a tight track that gives tons of examples.
I was taking a check out ride for advancement at a DE event and the instructor failed me for not shuffle steering. I had been at the Porsche Driving School and shuffle steering was not taught. I asked the Chief Track Instructor and was told that with more modern cars that have smaller steering wheels and more responsive suspensions you should not shuffle steer. He clarified this point at the next instructors meeting.
So twice in the past few months, someone has said, you should stop shuffling the wheel. Honestly, it never crossed my mind. maybe it's an old habit. with my steering ratio, I certainly can't run a lot of tracks without some shuffling, but wondering -- Is shuffling really a problem? Does it increase risk or lap times?
I guess I learned shuffling 20+ years ago and I think the logic back then was your hands are at 10 and 2 in the turn so you have equal range of motion right or left should you need to make an adjustment. has that changed?
Here's video from a tight track that gives tons of examples. Summit Point
you should stop shuffle steering. it's an old habit of our street car days, or drving in the rain or snow where you drive by feel and approximation, which is fine. but on a track, the technique you show is exactly how and why the CEO of Chevy crashed that vet on the indy car pace car lap. you dont know where nutral is on the steering wheel and you cant make fast, knowledgeable adjustments when the car starts to step out. no problem for you , as you and we can see , you are drivng well on the track, but if you get more to the limit, you will find that the shuffle steering technique willl fail you . Ive helped a LOT of folks (who were aft first, resistant), fix this technique issue. for some, they never change and run the risk , more so than if they didnt do it, of wadding their car up if something goes wrong, or they dance on the edge more often and cant keep the car there safely.
Originally Posted by RichFL
I was taking a check out ride for advancement at a DE event and the instructor failed me for not shuffle steering. I had been at the Porsche Driving School and shuffle steering was not taught. I asked the Chief Track Instructor and was told that with more modern cars that have smaller steering wheels and more responsive suspensions you should not shuffle steer. He clarified this point at the next instructors meeting.
I would have failed that instructor. .............. modern or not modern, you dont shuffle steer. go watch the top drivers in the vintage classes........ there are always a few of the old school , old model drivers, but the best dont do it and for good reason, UNLESS it is needed for the conditions or the particular turn.
Did you see the video of Rosberg driving a 918 at Silverstone?
Kept his hands at 9 and 3 the entire time. At one point he had his arms crossed to make a corner.
Of course, if you move your hands on an F1 wheel, you wouldn't know where all the myriad of buttons are.
Shuffle steering has been part of the Skip Barber Racing School curricula since 1975. I can quote from the Instructors Racing School Program Guide...
Not saying yea or nay, but there’s no conclusive data indicating it’s faster or not as fast.
Silly argument, if you ask me... most everyone keeps their hands at 9-3, unless there’s a compelling reason not to...
its not that it is faster , per se, but it does allow you to more safely stay at the edge of control more safely. ive done tests with drivers getting them to the edge and trying both ways,and the results are pretty obvious. people 9-3/2/10, are able to return to center at the correct speed and accurate return position, where the shufflesteerers , even good ones tend to overshoot more. makes sense when you think about all control factors. again, this is fine for rain and snow driving , or drifting (or autoX) , but not on a dry road course. the top drivers dont do it for these reasons, so why advocate it. yes, it is a silly argument.
Did you see the video of Rosberg driving a 918 at Silverstone?
Kept his hands at 9 and 3 the entire time. At one point he had his arms crossed to make a corner.
Of course, if you move your hands on an F1 wheel, you wouldn't know where all the myriad of buttons are.
exactly right! and for me, its all about where " straight wheels" is (without looking for a"wheel center" mark. ) this neutral point is essential for driving safely at the edge.
One reason people shuffle steer is that their seating position is wrong; arms are close to or fully extended so even modest wheel movements require shuffling. But that doesn't appear to be an issue with OP.
One reason people shuffle steer is that their seating position is wrong; arms are close to or fully extended so even modest wheel movements require shuffling. But that doesn't appear to be an issue with OP.
thats not even a good reason, but it can add to the motivation to do so. you can see from this random video of a 1964 vet at one of the most turney tracks in the world, shuffle steering is NOT required or desired.
you should stop shuffle steering. it's an old habit of our street car days, or drving in the rain or snow where you drive by feel and approximation, which is fine. but on a track, the technique you show is exactly how and why the CEO of Chevy crashed that vet on the indy car pace car lap. you dont know where nutral is on the steering wheel and you cant make fast, knowledgeable adjustments when the car starts to step out. no problem for you , as you and we can see , you are drivng well on the track, but if you get more to the limit, you will find that the shuffle steering technique willl fail you . Ive helped a LOT of folks (who were aft first, resistant), fix this technique issue. for some, they never change and run the risk , more so than if they didnt do it, of wadding their car up if something goes wrong, or they dance on the edge more often and cant keep the car there safely.
I would have failed that instructor. .............. modern or not modern, you dont shuffle steer. go watch the top drivers in the vintage classes........ there are always a few of the old school , old model drivers, but the best dont do it and for good reason, UNLESS it is needed for the conditions or the particular turn.
Originally Posted by golfnutintib
don't shuffle unless absolutely necessary as shuffling causes you to lose the orientation of the wheel relative to straight
I'm going to disagree.
While I don't shuffle steer around the track at every corner there are certain turns where I do exactly what the OP shows in his video. I have never once "lost orientation" of the wheel because of shuffle steering.
Comparing shuffle steering technique to formula one drivers is specious at best because these guys drive with a wheel where you can't shuffle. Same for many who come up through the carting route and similarly don't shuffle because of that.
Who can point to evidence that any of these negatives happen? There are plenty of examples of athletes who have unorthodox movements but are able to compete at the highest level. Saying it is bad, without considering how people learn to process information and react on an individual level, is wrongheaded thinking.
I think the driver needs to do what is best for them unless there is clear evidence that it is costing them time or is a safety hazard.
In the hairpin turn at Sebring if you keep your hands at 9 and 3 your arms cross. If the airbag were to go off for any reason I think it would do a lot of damage to your arms. I shuffle steer at that turn if its a passing situation although I try to have passes completed before the turn.
Shuffle steering has been part of the Skip Barber Racing School curricula since 1975. I can quote from the Instructors Racing School Program Guide...
Not saying yea or nay, but there’s no conclusive data indicating it’s faster or not as fast.
Silly argument, if you ask me... most everyone keeps their hands at 9-3, unless there’s a compelling reason not to...
I agree that is no right or wrong answer for everyone and I certainly won't make black and white statements like a certain other driver from California.
Having said that, I think it is a good idea to get people to stop unnecessary shuffle steering like we see from the driver in the video in the first post. He does it all the time for no good reason other than that is what he habitually does.
Must be a US thing, for 20 years I’ve seen no instructor ever teaching shuffle steer over here in Europe. Reason is - as many have already stated - that people loose track on where wheels are pointing to...
11-09-2018, 12:45 PM
To Shuffle (steer) or not to shuffle
.............. modern or not modern, you dont shuffle steer. go watch the top drivers in the vintage classes........ there are always a few of the old school , old model drivers, but the best dont do it and for good reason, UNLESS it is needed for the conditions or the particular turn. 
