OriginalSterm

Here's the deal...

Both me and my Dad have '87 951's. Both are currently daily drivers but will be making the transition to track cars (part time for me, full time for him eventually). What are the requirements for various racing clubs (PCA, SCCA, NASA, etc.) as far as cage/seats/more? We want to start getting the vehicles ready while we are dong DE's and schools during the next 2 or so years before we get our licenses.

Would anyone recommend for or against a bolt-in cage at least for the early goings?

TIA

Mike Buck

You can download a .pdf file of the 2004 Club Racing Rules from www.pca.org

AFAIK, there are no requirements for rollbars in DE . . . unless the car has been significantly modified. Even then it may not be strictly enforced.

I have a full welded cage in my 951. Safest way to go and not always as expensive as some people would think. Especially when you consider what you end up with in comparison to a typical bolt in cage or bar.


Just starting out in DE, you guys will be fine to leave your cars BONE stock. They are more than "ready" for beginners from the factory.

OriginalSterm

Yes, for most DE's no cage is required. Niether TrackMasters nor TracQuestBut required a cage. As we look into getting our racing licenses, cages and other safety equipment will be required. Just wondering if there is a requirement as far as how many points, wall thickness of the bars, cage material, etc.

As far as keeping these cars stock, too late for that. The cars are more capable than us right now, but not more than we can handle. Major upgrades will/might come when we catch up to the ability of our cars.

Bill Gregory

You should look over the requirements from each of the organizations you think you might want to race with. And there are subtle differences. A cage or roll bar that works in PCA might not work in NASA, due to where the angled cross bar attaches (example applies to Safety Devices cage in a 964, YMMV).

Geo

Yes, definitely get the specs from the groups you want to race with. I can give you the SCCA specs, but the only place you can race in SCCA is ITE. In the SCCA the cage tubing is dependent upon weight of the car. For my 944 I had the choice of 1.500 x 0.120 or 1.750 x 0.095. That's for 2740 lbs with car and driver. What weight are you shooting for with the 951?

I wouldn't use a bolt-in cage. A cage is not only a safety device, but it also stiffens the chassis if you design it right. And if you really do design it right, it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg if you prep the car right for the cage builder.

Who are you thinking of using?

If you want to talk about cage design, I'll be at Phoenix Imports Valnentine's weekend (big annual SE-R GTG).

RedlineMan

Hey;

The guys are steering you right here. Cage-in-a-Box is not a great solution. They may meet the rules, but they are also pretty weak - both in terms of safety & chassis - and space innefficient, sometimes to the point of being dangerous.

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.com/CagePage.html

Factor the cost of the cage plus install and you've got $1500 in it usually. For a few bucks more you can get a really efficient office to do business in that fits your SPECIFIC needs, looks sharp, and performs really well in safety, space efficiency, & chassis stiffening.

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.com/CagePage.html

Of course, I am biased since I BUILD roll cages, but I also have the rather annoying habit (to some) of almost always being RIGHT!

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...raftIndex.html

You guys are just up the road from me. Come by and we'll have a chat sometime!!!

OriginalSterm

George and John-
I would love to chat with both of you guys, so would my father. We are both VERY interested in what you guys have to say. Thanks!

Geo, PM what day and time you will be at Phoenix, we'll stop in to see both you and Randy.

Greg

Geo

Something else to consider is building the cage yourself. It's not rocket science. Well, the design should be well engineered (and there are a lot of poorly designed cages out there for sure - including "professionally built" ones).

Since you are looking at building two cages, you can probably get everything you need for the cost of paying someone else to do it. Then you have the tools, both physical and knowledge. Or, you can sell the tools afterwards. You won't lose much money on the tools if you go this route. Of course you will need someone to do the welding if you can't do that yourself.

You can get a good tubing bender with degree wheel and die for around $450. A high quality tubing notcher will run you $180. The tubing will run around $300 +/-. I bought 220' for two cars and that included 20' for practice and tooling and probably 20% extra for each car.

To build a cage you have to have patience and be willing to bend a new part if you screw one up. Here's a photo of my main hoop. First try and it's better than a lot of "professionally built" ones I've seen (the tape is there to hold it while I look over the fit).

Here is the bender that a lot of shops use (and the one we have):

http://www.jd2.com/M3B_Features.htm

And here is their notcher:

http://www.jd2.com/TN100_Features.htm

Again, if you would like to talk about design I'd be happy to meet up with you when I'm in Rochester. I've spent a lot of time with a couple of friends (one of whom is an engineer and racer) analyzing different designs, especially those in top level professional series and can give you some good ideas. Or you can buy Jon Milledge's IT Primer. It comes with a really really good cage design. Mine's going to be really really similar to his.

OriginalSterm

For a car that will still maintain some of it's interior (at least for now). Can a full cage be installed? Would it be better to take that job to a professional?

Geo

If you are leaving the full interior, I wouldn't install a full cage. You wouldn't believe the gap between the main hoop and the shell once you remove the interior pieces.

In that case, I think a bolt-in rollbar would be the ticket.

RedlineMan

I understand the point you are making Geo, but I disagree with your conclusion. If it will be a race car now or someday - even in "stock" classes - then it is generally permissable in most groups to modify and/or remove sections of the interior to install a cage. This can be successfully argued as a "safety item" because it improves the quality of the cage. Most groups will usually allow this, as there is no particular side benefit like weight savings to be termed an alterior motive or muddy up the argument.

Pulling back the vinyl headliner and sectioning or removing the roof rail padding and altering the rear side panels allows the hoop to fit the shell closely and be welded to it in key areas. If this is done neatly, it is virtually undetectable.

I am always one who is inclined to build to my ultimate goal, and not take short cuts or settle for less than I know I want someday. Hence my suggestion to go for it!

Geo

Well, it depends upon whether Greg is leaving the full interior (which I stated) or if he can and/or will strip part of it.

I stand by what I said. If you are leaving the full interior, a bolt-in rollbar is probably the best bet.

I would further say that for a car that is primarily a road car, a cage is a really bad idea.

OriginalSterm

If and when I go the route of a roll cage, it will be because I am tracking the car much more often. More than just DE's. At that point, the original seats are coming out, the rear seats will come out, and any modifications to carpeting or headliners will probably be made.

Not sure where I'll be at that point financially, if this can be a dedicated track car yet or not, so the dash may have to say fully intact.

My Dad and I look forward to talking with both of you in person at some point, get even more input on this subject.

Bill Gregory

I have a Safety Devices cage, which seems to be the cage of choice in our area for 964's. It has welded feet (on the stronger sills, not the floor) which the one piece main hoop bolts to. The rear supports are welded and bolt to the wheel wells with a support plate under the wheel well (not my personal choice for the best rear support base, but they didn't ask me). The side roof-to-floor bars are one piece and bolt to the welded sill plate and main hoop. The door bars and front roof bar bolt to the side bars. The bolt fixtures consist of one half that's welded to one bar, and the other half bolts to it. In a 964, the fitting is very good and doesn't require gutting the interior, which for those of us who use our cars for dual purposes or haven't converted to full racing usage, is a plus. I noticed a distinct chassis stiffening affect after installing it. Maybe not as ultimately stiff as a purpose-built fully welded solution, however, I have every confidence in a rollover it would perform as intended.

On rollbars and PCA DE, there is one case where you typically need a rollbar, and that's for Cabriolets (although there's some discussion about 996's with popup hoops).

Mike_A

if you will be doing anything near the top end with the car then it is a chrome-moly tig welded by a certified welder (a la the Mahter(?) factory cage).....i think the PCA still has photos of the car that got loose and hit the outside wall of Nascar turn one at Pocono back in 94, right in front of me......the driver was in a coma for months.....the bolt- in cage looked like a parallelogram.....why even think twice about it when it's your personal butt on the line......remember, Kinetic Energy = 1/2mv squared.....i suppose if you are doing parking lot slaloms you can get away with it